Cementum aged critters - Let’s see them..

[Frequently Banned Troll]

Yeah but I’m no tooth age expert. I do know that I thought it was a clearly old looking bull, by tooth wear and overall size, missing a waddle, and just other signs of having been an adult for more that a year or two.

 

[rogerthat]

Yeah but I’m no tooth age expert. I do know that I thought it was a clearly old looking bull, by tooth wear and overall size, missing a waddle, and just other signs of having been an adult for more that a year or two.

I’m just extrapolating what I know from deer and elk but 3 year old teeth on this are very sharp. Little to no wear. You would have noticed that

 

[Frequently Banned Troll]

I’m just extrapolating what I know from deer and elk but 3 year old teeth on this are very sharp. Little to no wear. You would have noticed that

I’m pretty sure this was a case of misplaced teeth.

 

[Brad]

3

Crazy that hoss is only 3...

 

[rogerthat]

I’m pretty sure this was a case of misplaced teeth.

That happens. I sent some whitetail teeth in this year that I got from a retired wildlife biologist. When Matsons got them they called me and said we received these pronghorn teeth but you labeled them whitetail. called the bio and couldn’t sort it out. we will never know exactly what we aged lol.

 

[TheTone]

I don’t have any elk that I would consider big until there 5 and I have sent in quite a collection of elk. WR archery was 6.

I wonder if that bull lived a year or two more if he would have added some non typical stuff and thus not been the WR. Basically did he get shot as his maximum typical potential?

 

[Big Sky Guy]

4 year old Shiras moose I was referring to above. Even if you account for error being off by 1 year, at most this was a 5 y/o bull. Tooth came directly to me, not processed with any other moose teeth so all potential error sources for mix ups eliminated. Seemed crazy to me.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

I’m pretty sure this was a case of misplaced teeth.

Good example of why we recommend pulling two teeth or saving the jaw. I always tell folks to give one tooth to the agency and keep one or the jaw, just in case. If sending directly to us can send both in one envelope or hold onto one. Best way to resolve these potential discrepancies is to just process the second backup tooth.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

That happens. I sent some whitetail teeth in this year that I got from a retired wildlife biologist. When Matsons got them they called me and said we received these pronghorn teeth but you labeled them whitetail. called the bio and couldn’t sort it out. we will never know exactly what we aged lol.

Well we’ve received a human tooth labeled as a pronghorn before so that tracks. Probably a different agency, but I’ve never seen a wild critter with a porcelain crown .

The lab is also not immune to error but if teeth are sent mislabeled we are setup to fail and there’s not really anything we can do to figure out what happened aside from pointing out obvious ones where the species are incorrect like in your instance above. Sometimes it’s also the hunters intentionally or unintentionally setting up the agencies too if they decide to put a feral (or maybe just domestic) cat tooth in the envelope instead of a bobcat. Pretty obvious when we come across it. Or hunters putting two bear teeth from two different bears in one envelope and then stating how the state/lab doesn’t know chit from Cheyenne because their 500lb bear came back as a 2 year old. Collecting teeth across a statewide collection there are always going to be a lot of hands and each is a source of potential error.

 

[Brad]

Good example of why we recommend pulling two teeth or saving the jaw. I always tell folks to give one tooth to the agency and keep one or the jaw, just in case. If sending directly to us can send both in one envelope or hold onto one. Best way to resolve these potential discrepancies is to just process the second backup tooth.

Can you age an elk from its ivories?

 

[rogerthat]

Can you age an elk from its ivories?

Yes

 

[It’s Bucky]

I wonder if that bull lived a year or two more if he would have added some non typical stuff and thus not been the WR. Basically did he get shot as his maximum typical potential?

He was also shot early in the season before he could break anything off. Stars really aligned.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Can you age an elk from its ivories?

Yes, we can provide age estimates from any tooth from pretty much any mammal you can kill or find. The I1's generally work the best for ungulates, but with elk the ivories are the tooth that biologists/researchers use from live-pull elk when they are doing collaring so those also seem to work well. If you want the crown back just specify that and pay the shipping back.

 

[Randy11]

The I1's generally work the best for ungulates, but with elk the ivories are the tooth that biologists/researchers use from live-pull elk when they are doing collaring so those also seem to work well.

Imagine shooting an elk and finding out someone beat you to the ivories.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Imagine shooting an elk and finding out someone beat you to the ivories.

I *think* they just pull one of them, but still, to your point you'd walk up to find out your elk only had one lol. Depending on how long after one might just think it never grew one or got busted out etc.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

At age 1.5 the front two (I1s) permanent incisors are in, and noticeably bigger than the others. At age 2.5 the I2s (next to the I1s) are permanent and larger. At age 3.5 the I3s (next to I2s) are permanent and large. At age 4.5 the last set of incisors, technically canines I think, are now permanent. After age 4.5 it becomes guesswork.

Here's a pic of the incisors from a pronghorn that is 3.5. The I4s/canines (circled) are noticeably smaller than the others.
View attachment 394894

This is all correct and excellent information on aging by tooth replacement, thanks for sharing. The same is also true with sheep and goats. You can do the same with elk and deer but only up until 2 years.

 

[npaden]

I think this one is a year older than the lab aged him at.

With southern deer my understanding is that they can be harder to age with cementum annuli because they could have multiple rings in a year if there was a hard winter and then a bad summer drought or there might not be any rings if there is a mild winter. Not 100% sure but I know that it isn’t as accurate on southern deer.

This one was aged at 4 with a “B” reliability score and a range of 4-5.

If he was 4 when I shot him in 2024 then he would have been 2.5 in 2022 when these pictures were taken. If you go with the range and give him 5 when I shot him he would have been 3.5 in 2022.

View attachment 392388

This is also from 2022 with another buck and I really think the other buck is 2.5 based on watching the deer on the property and he is at least 3.5 here and based on his body size and characteristics I would guess him at 4.5 here.

View attachment 392389

Pictures from 2023. If he was 5 when I killed him in 2024 he would be 4.5 in these pictures. I think he was 1 year older. Already has a sway to his back and very heavy in the neck and front shoulders. This was late summer early fall long before the rut.

View attachment 392390View attachment 392391

Pictures from 2024 when I killed him. Lab said 4 or a range of 4-5. I think he was 6.5.

View attachment 392392View attachment 392393View attachment 392395View attachment 392394

Here’s his jawbone.
View attachment 392396

I really need to go back and see if I can find trail camera pictures of him in 2021. I remembered him from 2021 and thought he was already a good buck then.

Going back over it, I’m not seeing the slam dunk here that I remembered but I do think there is reason to believe that he was 6.5 instead of 5 in 2024 when I killed him. That matches up with the tooth wear and body size and composition. Before I got the tooth aged I actually thought he was 7.5 when I killed him.

Found some pictures of him from 2021.


For him to be 4 when I shot him in 2024 he would have needed to be 1.5 here. No way he was 1.5 in 2021 based on these pictures. I have some other pictures of him with some other bucks and I think he was 3.5 in these pictures. I tried finding a picture of him in 2020 but couldn't conclusively identify him from 2020 pictures.

I know they aged him at 4 with a B rating and a range of 4-5. If he was 5 which would be the top of their range it would put him at 2.5 in these pictures. That's closer but I still think it is a year off and he was 3.5 in the above pictures.

He really was a cool buck. Found the full resolution version of him in velvet while I was looking for these older ones.

 

[DFS]

This bull had some unusual ivory wear. I have his teeth to send in.