Bush Vows Extinction of Salmon in My Private Idaho

[BigHornyRam]

Thanks Buzz,

I new Ithaca's "over 99 percent reduction" was pure B. S..

Now if we could go back to the Northwest human population when Lewis and Clark passed through, the Columbia basin could no doubt support 16 million wild salmon. How do you propose we do that?

Paul

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, nobody is pretending that the salmon problem will ever be cured to the point of Lewis and Clark days.

Thats as ridiculous as your claim that Bush and his "knowledge" and dam techno-fixes will even make a dent in recovering salmon enough to keep them from going extinct. Bush should stick to things like trying to catch Bin Laden...as he hasnt a goddamned clue about anadromous fish...

What most sane individuals think is that the best of both worlds would be to remove 4 non-essential dams to recover salmon enough to keep them off and/or get them off, the ESA.

We could save an asspile of money thats currently being flushed down the toilet knowns as "barging", "hatchery improvements", "turbine screens", etc. etc. etc.

These things are failing, take a look at the numbers. Ever since the dams went in, anadromous fish numbers have been on a steady decline, thats a fact supported by the numbers. Dont look at 2-3 years, look at the big picture from before the dams started going in to what happened after they went in. You'll find a steady decline.

This thing will come down to money...and the Feds will yard those dams out of the Snake because of that. They dont want to keep spending billions to save millions, and theres enough publicity and facts out there to prove thats precisely what they're doing. Throw in the tribal lawsuits that will be filled in the 120 billion range...the Feds dont have a prayer. They'll pull the cork on those dams way before they shell out 120-200 billion to the tribes.

Like I say, this thing is way beyond a matter of if, its just a question of when.

Bush cant stay in office forever...

 

[Ithaca 37]

Paul, I was talking about wild fish.

No matter how picky you get, you gotta admit there's been a huge reduction.

As you must have figured out by now, you're way out of your league when you're trying to discuss anadromous fish here in SI. All you do is embarrass yourself.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,

Just not your day.... What are you, 0 for 20 on your posts today? It got so bad, you finally were having to post with MichaelR and the Whacko Sherriff....

Your quote of:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I new Ithaca's "over 99 percent reduction" was pure B. S..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> just shows how little you know.

Some of these runs and gene pools are 100% gone. Never to be seen again. I think Ithica is way too conservative with the 99% reduction number on many of the Wild runs.
The Jarbridge, the Owyhee, the Weiser, the Boise, the Malheur, all runs are 100% GONE!
The Sockeye in Idaho is at the 99.99999999% gone level. There has not been a Wildfish spawn at Redfish in years.

And your other quote of:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I'll vote for dam breaching when everyone in Seattle, and all the hypcrites at this site quit using electricity <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> again shows how much you don't know. Just exactly what election are you planning on voting in for the dam breaching? I have yet to see a Federal Initiative process, where Citizens get to vote on Federal issues. These dams will be removed because of Science and because of the Law. If there was an election, my guess is the dams would be gone even Faster.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz boy,

Like a typical lying weasel politician you use data that works for you to try to defend your point. Why didn't you use steelhead/salmon numbers from the last couple years instead of 1996-2000. Face it you just want the dams removed. The recent improvement in salmon numbers isn't what you want to see. Who's the salmon hater?

Elk chumer,

Keep lipping off and I'll untie one of my arms.

Salmon Killer,

What's whats his names position on dam breaching?

Paul

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,
I am so terribly sorry. I didn't mean to lip off. I should be more respectful of my elders.

How about if I ask you how you would propose restoring Wild Salmon and Steelhead, in numbers sufficient to remove all ESA designations to the Pashimeroi, to the American, to Johnson, to the Main Salmon, the the Middle Fork, to the South Forks of the Salmon, to the Clearwater system, to the EFSF of Salmon, to the EF Salmon, to Marsh Creek, to Bear Valley Creek, to the Crooked River?

I'll cut you a break, and not even ask you how you would restore Salmon to the Weiser, the Owyhee, the Jarbridge, the Malheur, the Boise, the Payette.

C'mon Paul, you know Breaching is not the answer, so please share with us what the answer really is!

 

[BigHornyRam]

The answer is easy gunner,

Disconnect your power, and breach every phucking dam all the way down to the ocean. But you wont disconnect your power, and get the process rolling.

Paul

 

[JoseCuervo]

Wow....!!!
You made great progress, from
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I'll vote for dam breaching when everyone in Seattle, and all the hypcrites at this site quit using electricity.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
to the comment of
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The answer is easy gunner,
Disconnect your power, and breach every phucking dam all the way down to the ocean. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now you are catching on.... See, one can learn something every day, if one chooses to.

Lots of Money being sucked out of the Taxpayers, and No results for the Salmon

 

[BigHornyRam]

Gunner,

I've been telling you this from day one of this debate. Now if you would like me to come to your house to show you how to disconnect your power I'ld be more then happy to help you out. If you are to lazy to do this simple process, and I know you are lazy, just skip paying your electric bill for a couple of months, and the power company will come out and disconnect it for you free of charge. If you stop posting at this site, I'll know that you were successful, and that the salmon will soon be on their way to recovery!

Paul

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,

It is pretty easy to object to the proposals and the finding of the Scientists involved, but when asked to provide a solution, you can't.

I think you are finally starting to understand the issue, whether you are willing to admidt it or not.

I am not sure what you have against Idaho having Wild Salmon in our rivers, as it doesn't make any rational sense to be against Salmon in our rivers.

How would you react if 99% of all the Wild Sheep in Montana were wiped out, due to some un-needed subsidized commerical interest that benefits a handful of familes that lose money on apple orchards and raising commodity grain? Wouldn't you be for paying off those handful of people, telling them to go away, and restoring the Wild Sheep populations?

The Science is in, the Economics are in, the Judge's decision is in, now we just have to do the Right Thing.

 

[cjcj]

Buzz if your going to pretend to be a black man its pronounced [BEOTCH] and do you shoot your pistol "gangsta style" you know sideway`s? and for all of the dam breachers you mean i made those phone calls for nothing? you guys said those dams you wanted breached were outdated and no longer produced electricity! correct me if i`m wrong, ans Buzz i`ll be glad to teach you some "street lingo" ebonic`s .

 

[JoseCuervo]

Cj,

Nahh... You are ok making the phone calls. Keep the pressure up on McCain. I think we are starting to get somewhere. Here is the latest update from Congress.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Salmon Planning Act, re-introduced in Congress in February by its original sponsors Reps. McDermott (D-WA) and Petri (R-WI), now has 93 Democratic and Republican co-sponsors! The legal victory in May helped confirm what salmon advocates have been repeating over the last several years: that the current plan is inadequate, maintains the status quo, and only reinforces a legacy of federal failure. Increasingly, House members understand the causes of salmon decline, the repeated and expensive failures of past and current federal efforts, and the need for a recovery program that will help the economy, create jobs, and spend taxpayer dollars effectively to restore wild salmon by restoring 140 miles of healthy, free-flowing river.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think we have always said these 4 dams to not produce a significant or menaningful amount of power, and the damage they do is not worth it. These dams could likely be replaced by 4 hamsters on spinning wheels down at the local Pet store.

These dams were not built for power, nor managed for power, but are managed for barge traffic. When you add the cost of the money spent by the US Army Corp of Engineers trying to reduce the impact to Salmon, these dams are not even competitive producers of power.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Elkgunner,

First thing you have to do if you want to be taken seriously, and not tossed into the left wing wacko catagory, is admit that the power produced by these dams is significant. Otherwise your just another insignificant dope smoking green peace hippy with bad body odor, and a predilection for voting for political candidates that no one has heard of, and never get elected.

Sorry.

Paul

 

[Oak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Bush should stick to things like trying to catch Bin Laden...as he hasnt a goddamned clue about anadromous fish... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, judging from the last two years I'd say he doesn't have a clue about catching bin Laden either.

Oak

 

[BigHornyRam]

Oak,

Is that that brightest comment you can make in reguards to this issue, or do you have more wisdom to add?

Bin Laden is most likely worm food, and if he isn't, when and if he crawls out from under his rock, he will be. Go back to painting your protest signs. There are plenty of Americans with a back bone looking out for this countries best interest.

Paul

 

[Oak]

Listen DicklessHornyRam, I didn't say how I stood on the issue, just that ol' Bush didn't exactly "smoke 'em out" like he said he was going to do. Don't put words in my mouth.

As for my opinion on this topic, I didn't feel the need to add it. You were already getting your ass handed to you by some of the other posters. Let me get this straight...your opinion is that the salmon are already beyond saving, right? After all, the only option you've come up with to save them is for us to stop using electricity, which you've also said is not realistic (the only thing you've said that makes any sense). So unless you have a better argument, I see no reason to reiterate the facts the others have presented to show your foolishness on the subject.

But thanks for caring about my opinion...

Oak

 

[BigHornyRam]

Colorado Dope Smoker,

The issue is pretty clear. Dams and their benefits, and a modest run of salmon, or no dams, and possibly a restored salmon run. The choice is yours, I don't give a shit. I'm showing support for my choice by voting for Bush. Find someone that supports your views and vote for him or her and hope they can round up more votes then Bush. I'll wager you what ever you want to lose, that such a person does not exist.

Paul

 

[cjcj]

Bush VS. Gore think about it! give me the cowboy! not the geek.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Colorado,

Sorry I engaged you. I should have known better that a cub like you would have anything to add to this debate other than parroting your left wing wacko pals E. G., Buzz, and Ithaca. I should have realized long ago that you are a mindless sole only capable of regurgatating the propoganda fed to you by these three fools.

Look at the title of this topic and you can decide the point of view of its sponser and his defenders. Koo Koo! And these guys were calling Helen C. and Ron Gillett wackos. Too funny.

Paul

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, I'll say this for you...you arent afraid to defend a position, even though you're totally clueless about it.

There are dam counts available for every dam on the Columbia system from at least 1960ish.

Sure, you get yearly fluctuations in salmon and steelhead numbers, no doubt. The last few years have been OK.

If I would have wanted to show an even bigger decline, I would have used the years in the early 90's when steelhead numbers were less than 9,000 total fish going through the lowest dam on the Snake. That really isnt fair though. The same as using the last 2-3 years of good salmon runs to say, "looky, we've solved the problem!" Take a look at the water years in 1997-1999, extremely high in Idaho. Smolt moved down the river easily...also aided by a "flush" mandated by congress but only upheld one year...throw in good ocean conditions and millions upon millions of hatchery smolt...yeah you get a salmon season every now and then.

Also Paul, how do you explain that there was a very limited salmon season on the Middle Fork of the Clearwater in 1978...and not another season of any kind on the Middle fork until may of 2000? What happened to the salmon for the 22 years in between?

How do you explain that EVERY wild run of salmon and steelhead in Idaho is listed under the ESA?

Bottom line is, you really need to educate yourself, and despite what you think, those dams will be gone...

Its fun to see you get all worked up though, and fight the losing fight.