Bombproof Shell Jacket?

[Irrelevant]

If I wanted to work/hike/hunt all week/s in a constant rain, what jacket would I buy?

*Must still be breathable (not PVC, neoprene, etc)
*Must be very durable
*Come with a lifetime or similar warranty against defects
*Doesn't have to be lightweight, but that's still a plus.

 

[Bambistew]

Let me know what you find. I have bought probably 20 rain jackets in the last 15 years, from the low end to nearly $400. The only one that is 100% is Helly Hanson Impretech. The $400 jacket was a POS. I had water running out of my sleeves on a couple backpack hunts. Goretex is fine if you don't use a pack, but when you have something rubbing against it, they leak 100% of the time.

 

[Irrelevant]

Let me know what you find. I have bought probably 20 rain jackets in the last 15 years, from the low end to nearly $400. The only one that is 100% is Helly Hanson Impretech. The $400 jacket was a POS. I had water running out of my sleeves on a couple backpack hunts. Goretex is fine if you don't use a pack, but when you have something rubbing against it, they leak 100% of the time.

I have had similar experiences with Goretex. But they keep say "100% waterproof" and I hoping someday they'll be right.

 

[Irrelevant]

I found this on a BC mountain goat guide gear list page.

 

[BackofBeyond]

Only thing 100% I've found was the comercial fishing Helly Hansen/Grundens stuff. I'd take that stuff over even the stuff family brings me from working underground.

Otherwise, no such thing as 100%.

 

[brocksw]

"Bombproof", ha, who invented this saying when discussing hunting gear?
With that said, I splurged on an on sale Arc'Teryx shell a couple seasons ago. I believe it was the Beta AR? Probably the best rain jacket I've ever had, even a tick better than the original Kuiu Chugach I owned. But I still get a wet back when I have a pack on. I still sweat my nuts off when I'm trying to hike in it. And If I'm hunting in a monsoon for days on end, I'll be wet regardless. But I still pack it and use it, because it still helps. I do feel like there is a benefit, both from a comfort and a safety standpoint, to having it in the pack.

As others have eluded, buy the best you can for your uses, acknowledge the trade-offs and limitations. I like arc'teryx because their customer service reputation is very good and in my single experience with them (different item) they took care of me, no questions asked. I like that. They can be found on sale pretty regularly. I like that too.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Not 100%, but you're looking for dry-er, and dry-ish probably...enough that if you get a half day of sun you're not sopping and can dry other layers out. Like everything, diminishing returns, nothing's perfect, value, and all that, blah blah blah. Money no object I'd go Arc Alpha SV or Beta SV, maybe Rab Latok Alpine depending on pocket configuration you prefer. Alpha face fabric is tougher but less air permeable. And keep up on the DWR. @wllm took the Beta to AK.

Everything $250-$400 ballpark is more alike than different in my experience. I used to try lots of shells, but I don't use them enough to justify anything better than "very good" any more.

 

[Irrelevant]

Not 100%, but you're looking for dry-er, and dry-ish probably...enough that if you get a half day of sun you're not sopping and can dry other layers out. Like everything, diminishing returns, nothing's perfect, value, and all that, blah blah blah. Money no object I'd go Arc Alpha SV or Beta SV, maybe Rab Latok Alpine depending on pocket configuration you prefer. Alpha face fabric is tougher but less air permeable. And keep up on the DWR. @wllm took the Beta to AK.

Everything $250-$400 ballpark is more alike than different in my experience. I used to try lots of shells, but I don't use them enough to justify anything better than "very good" any more.

A buddy has the Alpha SV, bought it 10 yrs ago, still swears it would stop an IED, but also laments it leaks through the shoulders where his pack wears on it.

Ever try any of the euro brands? NOrrona, millet, mammut, etc

I don't really have a rain shell (other than a set of ultralight kuiu) and lamented it in WY for two days. Thinking about backpacking the coast (OP) next year, La Push to Shi Shi, gonna need a good set for that.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

A buddy has the Alpha SV, bought it 10 yrs ago, still swears it would stop an IED, but also laments it leaks through the shoulders where his pack wears on it.

Ever try any of the euro brands? NOrrona, millet, mammut, etc

I don't really have a rain shell (other than a set of ultralight kuiu) and lamented it in WY for two days. Thinking about backpacking the coast (OP) next year, La Push to Shi Shi, gonna need a good set for that.

Norrona no, Millet no though I know some who have, Mammut yes. At the time I started using Rab they were almost exclusively UK. Almost everyone has gone to Gore Pro now, so there's precious little difference in membrane options at the top end. I have generally preferred eVent for breathability, not any perceived additional protection. I think they're really close. I put Neoshell through the ringer and it did not hold up to my expectations for a primary wet weather shell.

At the end of the day you've got a face fabric, membrane, and (for these @ 1 lb jackets) a liner. For it to work it's best, the wet:dry gradient must exist from inside to out. That means keeping the lining and ultimately membrane relatively clean, and keeping the DWR sharp so the exterior doesn't wet out. Physically pressuring water from the exterior such that it saturates the shell and either "leaks" or at least fails to move any of your moisture is not really a failure in manufacturing IMO, it's a physics problem. I'm no engineer, but apparently you can't ask to move moisture one direction across a paper thin physical barrier without some risk of inability to stop the reverse at a given PSI.

You probably know all of the above, I don't mean to sound like a know it all; it's just how I think about it. Which is why I think of shells as "keep you dry enough", and nearly everything else I own other than down insulation was selected in part because it dries out pretty fast and/or functions well when damp.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Like @SnowyMountaineer said I just got the Beta SV and took it to AK. You can look at the differences between it and the Alpha SV, but basically both those jackets have a lot burlier face fabric than your typical rain jacket.

I didn’t have any leaks and stayed dry in heavy rain + wind with a pack. My Beta SL hybrid jacket does tend to get a little damp in the shoulders after it wets out and has water pressed into the fabric.

I’m sure the Beta SV might eventually suffer the same issue though who knows.

Maybe someone will add some PVC shoulder panels to a jacket

I think the Beta SV is likely the gold standard for a non-rubber jacket. I’m suspicious anyone on the market is making a “better” jacket, though probably some that work just as well that are cheaper. Probably all use Gore Pro with a 80 or 100 face.

For your use case I might look for PVC with pit zips

 

[Irrelevant]

Norrona no, Millet no though I know some who have, Mammut yes. At the time I started using Rab they were almost exclusively UK. Almost everyone has gone to Gore Pro now, so there's precious little difference in membrane options at the top end. I have generally preferred eVent for breathability, not any perceived additional protection. I think they're really close. I put Neoshell through the ringer and it did not hold up to my expectations for a primary wet weather shell.

At the end of the day you've got a face fabric, membrane, and (for these @ 1 lb jackets) a liner. For it to work it's best, the wet:dry gradient must exist from inside to out. That means keeping the lining and ultimately membrane relatively clean, and keeping the DWR sharp so the exterior doesn't wet out. Physically pressuring water from the exterior such that it saturates the shell and either "leaks" or at least fails to move any of your moisture is not really a failure in manufacturing IMO, it's a physics problem. I'm no engineer, but apparently you can't ask to move moisture one direction across a paper thin physical barrier without some risk of inability to stop the reverse at a given PSI.

You probably know all of the above, I don't mean to sound like a know it all; it's just how I think about it. Which is why I think of shells as "keep you dry enough", and nearly everything else I own other than down insulation was selected in part because it dries out pretty fast and/or functions well when damp.

it is a good reminder that physics still govern. I guess part of me experiences enough "holy sh!t" moment thanks to our technology on any given day, moments that completely blow my mind as to what's possible, that I struggle with getting wet in the rain, seems like an easier problem to solve, even if I understand why it's not.

Wasn't nano technology going to solve this problem last decade?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Not sure where this fits in the physics convo, but my Beta SV did stop a can of bear spray discharged while pressed up against the fabric.

There was an orange stain on the inside of the jacket, that I can’t get out, but none of the spray made it to my clothes underneath the jacket.

 

[RealMuddyboots]

Like most, I have prob 7-8 sets of rain gear that just never worked with packs. Thinking hard about this one, but afraid of becoming a "Poppins" in high wind.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Wasn't nano technology going to solve this problem last decade?

I don't know what that is, but my old tennis racquet says it has that and I kicked ass with it in High School.

 

[Bambistew]

Like @SnowyMountaineer eluded to, you just have to accept the fact that you're going to be a little wet and uncomfortable from time to time if you spend a lot of time in the rain. Gore-Tex doesn't dry out that well when its 99% humidity in a tent, BTW. Guys these days are so afraid of being uncomfortable, that they will spend $1000s on a clothing system. A buddy here in AK about died of hypothermia last year in his Sitka rain gear, with rain driving it through the material, soaked him to the bone... I know they're tested for driving rain. He threw it in the trash and packed his HH the next hunt.

I love hunting in the L48, where you can dry out your gear much easier due to the dry environment. Dry boots are much more common as well, and in general minimal raingear can get you through most hunts. I can count on one hand the number of trips I've done in AK with dry feet. My last 3 sheep hunts it rained for 7 of the 10 days we hunted, and not just sprinkled. My rain coat never dried out. Gore-Tex = fancy word for saturated.

The whole breathable raingear thing is a gimmick, IMO and longevity of the system working is 100% dependent on the DWR or breathable layer functioning. I can't say that the lightweight gear has been any better or worse than the heavier material 3 layer systems as far as longevity or keeping you dry. Gore-Tex is 100% guaranteed to fail if you use it for an entire day in the rain, pack or not. The shell will wet out eventually. None have lasted more than 2 year of use, and re-wash in DWR is never as good as factory applied. YMMV. I look at raingear as throw away gear, I get a new coat/pants about every year and just rotate it into the line-up. Hunting gear gets downgraded to fishing/hiking, which gets downgraded to boat fishing and fish cleaning. I have a set of HH that has been around for 14 seasons, it has hole cut in it from fleshing hides, and various other tasks, but it still keeps me dry. None of the gimmick breathable will keep me dry in the back yard tossing the ball for the dogs after 3-4 years.

What I can't figure out is how breathable waders don't soak through. I can stand in water for hours and have dry legs/feet at the end of the day. is it the way they breath, as in the airflow out the top, and what we're actually seeing with failed rain jackets is just perspiration?

 

[brocksw]

What I can't figure out is how breathable waders don't soak through. I can stand in water for hours and have dry legs/feet at the end of the day. is it the way they breath, as in the airflow out the top, and what we're actually seeing with failed rain jackets is just perspiration?

They've had their issues too. But to my understanding, heavier duty laminate product + heavier duty exterior fabric + heavier duty interior lining has seemed to get those waders to work pretty well. Throw in the fact that the only place likely to get compressed is the seat, which is easily reinforced since weight is typically not a selling point for waders. But my gut tells me that they have a finite useful life as well. Then it will be business as usual.

 

[Bambistew]

They've had their issues too. But to my understanding, heavier duty laminate product + heavier duty exterior fabric + heavier duty interior lining has seemed to get those waders to work pretty well. Throw in the fact that the only place likely to get compressed is the seat, which is easily reinforced since weight is typically not a selling point for waders. But my gut tells me that they have a finite useful life as well. Then it will be business as usual.

I'm not sure, mine have all failed at the flex points/seams, around the ankles and knees. Like rain gear, I have about 6 pairs of waders too. They get rotated down the line and patched up and used by friends/family when they come up. My current pair is going on 4 years, but they are 2x as thick as previous pairs.

 

[Irrelevant]

What I can't figure out is how breathable waders don't soak through. I can stand in water for hours and have dry legs/feet at the end of the day. is it the way they breath, as in the airflow out the top, and what we're actually seeing with failed rain jackets is just perspiration?

I question how "breathable" those waders are. And they always leak somewhere, mine seem to start at the feet and then the crotch.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I'm not sure, mine have all failed at the flex points/seams, around the ankles and knees. Like rain gear, I have about 6 pairs of waders too. They get rotated down the line and patched up and used by friends/family when they come up. My current pair is going on 4 years, but they are 2x as thick as previous pairs.

Throw into the mix drysuits, what the heck is a kokatat made out of? Definitely isn’t as much of a trash bag as a PVC jacket and they are 100% waterproof.

 

[brocksw]

I'm not sure, mine have all failed at the flex points/seams, around the ankles and knees. Like rain gear, I have about 6 pairs of waders too. They get rotated down the line and patched up and used by friends/family when they come up. My current pair is going on 4 years, but they are 2x as thick as previous pairs.

Right. Which I would imagine is the case for every single gore Tex type laminate on the planet. I know it is for me. Almost everything always fails first at the flex points/high wear areas and seams. The breathable wader game has come a long way. A few years back, Banded breathable waders went through an entire design change with their laminate seams and high flex areas because they were having so many problems with leaking. Now the overall impressions I hear seem to agree that they did well and made an Improvement. Guys are having much better experiences with them. But I don't think any of them would tell you their expectations are a lifetime use waterproof garment.

These laminates have a finite number of times they can be washed/worn before they fail. It's not if, but when. Ive accepted that.