JoseCuervo
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What would be the sinister motive for them to have that goal?
BLM, Forest Service and Nevada Ranchers
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What would be the sinister motive for them to have that goal?
RobG
Well-known member
Holy Trespassing Cow Batman. Before you know it we won't be able to hunt in national parks or drive 4 wheelers through wilderness areas! They might even keep some areas "roadless." Geothermal development of Yellowstone? Fugettaboutit as long as the socialist dictator reigns supreme.
Musket Man
New member
The environmental groups want cows off of public land so they find something like the desert tortoise they can use to pressure the BLM or FS to get cows off the land to 'protect the tortoise'. Its the same thing as how they used the spotted owl to shut down alot of logging.
That decision to change the allowed AUMs was issued in 1993. Most all the science that supported that decision, whether we agree with the decision or not, came from the BLM and USFWS from 1990-1992. At that time, those agencies were lead by people who were appointed by George (H.W.) Bush, a guy I voted for.
When one looks at the facts and history, the idea of these decisions being agendas from within the agencies and those agencies being led by, and supposedly corrupted by, left wingers does not hold true. I know of no Republican Presidents who appointed a bunch of left wing environmental activists to leadership roles within the USFS, USFWS, BLM, or EPA during their administrations. To say that is the case, and that the information gathered during the Bush I adminstration and used for the decision that reduced these AUMs, is not supported by the facts or by history.
What does hold true is that left leaning environmental groups are able to use the existing laws and the courts interpretation to provide for change in a lot of these things.
People need to understand that it is not the agencies telling the courts what they are going to do. Rather, it is the courts telling the agencies what the agencies are required to do under the law.
It all gets back to the laws on the books. If those are the problem, then it is time, maybe well past the time, to make a case for getting them changed. Blaming agencies for these laws and the court decisions on these laws is the wrong place to focus.
I am no fan of the Center for Biological Diversity. They made me a big target when we aired our wolf episode. Yet, they are part of a movement that is very effective in getting the laws, such as the ESA, challenged in the courts. If this is a marathon, these groups have a 25 mile headstart on others when it comes to understanding how to use these laws as a piece of leverage.
If one wants to lessen the leverage these groups have, the change starts with the elected leaders, who can then change these laws, Changed laws requires the courts to interpret new laws differently. New court interpretations will then cause agencies to implement the new laws differently than the old laws.
If one cannot make a compelling case to elected leaders, or get elected those people who might be in favor of change, the possibility of change to national policies and Federal legislation is not very good. Blaming the wrong people for the outcome might feel good, but does nothing to improve the situation.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
Big Fin, Nemont, Buzz-
Thank you for the great posts (I mean that sincerely). I learned alot from reading your posts, I agree with you. However, it has been pointed out to me that I am mixing things up. Somebody told me once that you never learn anything when your mouth is open, so I will just sit back and observe from this one from this point forward.
Jose, I am prepared to absorb your wisdom, if you see me fit to recieve it. (I meant that kind of sarcastically)
JoseCuervo
New member
What about hunters that want cows off public lands?
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
Now we are getting somewhere.
JoseCuervo
New member
Big Fin, Nemont, Buzz-
Thank you for the great posts (I mean that sincerely). I learned alot from reading your posts, I agree with you. However, it has been pointed out to me that I am mixing things up. Somebody told me once that you never learn anything when your mouth is open, so I will just sit back and observe from this one from this point forward.
Jose, I am prepared to absorb your wisdom, if you see me fit to recieve it. (I meant that kind of sarcastically)
I will never claim to have anywhere near the wisdom that Big Fin, Nemont, and Buzz have on these types of issues, as to some extent, those 3 are 90, 135, and 180 degrees opposite (not in that order,
) of my opinion and solution for these issues.But, by listening to their facts, I am able to draw my own opinion and can tell you where they are wrong in their conclusions, but not their facts.
There is lots to discuss on the issues of Welfare Ranchers running their cattle on My Public Lands, and it does not serve the discussion for you to bring up nonsense like "media bias" and "compassion" for 11 million law breakers. Keep moving the discussion forward.
It is interesting to watch the right-wing "establishment" try and distance themselves from the nonsense that is the law-breaking ass-hat Welfare Rancher in Nevada and the Lawn Chair Militia members, while extreme right bloggers and Faux News continue to feed nonsense that takes away from the discussion of the facts of this story, the fact that some guy has stolen from us for the past 20 years.
And, if you know anything about cattle, you would know that THIS is the year that Mr. Bundy could sell cattle and put all his fines behind him. If a rancher can't get out of debt this year, they need to find a job cleaning tables in the casinos in Vegas.
El Jason
Well-known member
You got that right. I think Mr. Bundy missed his calling in Vegas.
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
I will never claim to have anywhere near the wisdom that Big Fin, Nemont, and Buzz have on these types of issues, as to some extent, those 3 are 90, 135, and 180 degrees opposite (not in that order,
But, by listening to their facts, I am able to draw my own opinion and can tell you where they are wrong in their conclusions, but not their facts.
There is lots to discuss on the issues of Welfare Ranchers running their cattle on My Public Lands, and it does not serve the discussion for you to bring up nonsense like "media bias" and "compassion" for 11 million law breakers. Keep moving the discussion forward.
It is interesting to watch the right-wing "establishment" try and distance themselves from the nonsense that is the law-breaking ass-hat Welfare Rancher in Nevada and the Lawn Chair Militia members, while extreme right bloggers and Faux News continue to feed nonsense that takes away from the discussion of the facts of this story, the fact that some guy has stolen from us for the past 20 years.
And, if you know anything about cattle, you would know that THIS is the year that Mr. Bundy could sell cattle and put all his fines behind him. If a rancher can't get out of debt this year, they need to find a job cleaning tables in the casinos in Vegas.
I am with you 100%. I have learned more about wildlife management, public land, conservation efforts from listening to the members of hunttalk than anywhere else. I will also acknowledge that I probably diluted the conversation with some of my comments.
I don't know alot about cattle, what is going on this year? Prices skyrocketing?
shoots-straight
Well-known member
Have you ever just used common sense on an issue?
Lets look at a map of the area.
If you look at the red zone, that was Bundy's allotment set up for 150 cows. That amount of land that his cattle need 150,000 acres to survive. That's a lot of land for a small amount of cattle. He was running around 900 on the black lined areas, illegally. It would take a herd like that to survive in the cattle business.
So lets multiply that by 52 times. Yep, that means a lot of land was jam packed with cattle covering a lot of acres. Much bigger than the map I showed. Maybe just maybe that land should not be used for cattle grazing in the first place. I know of farmers here in Montana that farm on lands that barely produce the seed they use every year. They are guaranteed the certain amount of bushels per acre every year to get by. We need to buy them out and send them into retirement. We would be money ahead to take them off the lands and let buffalo, elk, and deer range there.
Some lands just aren't productive for agriculture.
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JoseCuervo
New member
Yes, if you want to create a believable conspiracy theory, and sinister motive for the BLM enforcing the court actions, it is because this nation has a huge deficit, and somebody realised that if the seize Bundy's cattle at record high beef prices, we can pay down our nation's debt. (That consipiracy theory is actually logical, as opposed to the nonsense about China, Solar, and Turtles.)
http://www.agmanager.info/livestock/marketing/graphs/Cattle/Prices/7-8 Cash Prices/7-8SteerPr.htm
Hopefully that graph shows thru. It takes a bit to figure it out.
The Red squares are 2014 prices. The purple bars are 2013's prices. And the blue line is the 5-year average of cattle prices.
Note that the Red Squares are $0.40/lb higher than the purple bars from last year. That means Mr. Bundy is getting $300 more for EACH of his steers he sells this year. He runs a 1000 head of cows. (Also note this year's prices to the last 5 year's average, 33% higher, or, and extra $400 per calf he sells.)
The government only asked him to pay $1.35 per pair on the range, far less than it takes to pay for cat food for a month. And, Mr. Bundy forfeited the opportunity of having the US Taxpayers absorb the cost of his desire to play cowboy.
SFC B
Well-known member
MinnesotaHunter
Well-known member
So it sounds like the recent drought years have driven down the overall herd to record lows and that is jacking up the prices. Interesting. This probably makes buying hay not feasible as well.
Zach
Well-known member
Hay prices are ridiculous this year. I'm only buying during the winter for 2 horses, but I go to some hay auctions with a neighbor who is buying for cattle. Price per ton is way up, even straw is crazy prices.
jryoung
Well-known member
I know a lot of ranchers in CA had to supplement with hay this winter. Normally, the areas just south of the SF Bay are some of the best winter grazing (private) in the country and nearly everyone had to supplement with hay because of the drought.
Zach
Well-known member
I don't know where the CA ranchers are buying from, but some of the ones I know here in CO are going to the neighboring states. WY,NE and KS specifically. Even then the prices are pretty steep, then you add in fuel costs.
JoseCuervo
New member
I'm not sure you will be able to touch hay around here for less than $200. Hay farmers are doing well.
Welfare Ranchers who are lucky enough to pay $1.35 a month should not be threatening the government that keeps them from having to compete in the free market.
Welfare Ranchers who are lucky enough to pay $1.35 a month should not be threatening the government that keeps them from having to compete in the free market.
Nemont
Well-known member
The cost of private grazing can reach $50 an AUM around here for the highest I have heard but have heard that $35 to $40 is about average if you can find it.
Some pairs went through the ring here today for $2,500 and even old cows are bring $1,500 a head and every time a calf hits the ground and it lives that is $1,000 bill.
When the cowboys are making money they spend it. Talk to the local Ford dealer and they can't keep pickups on the their lots.
Nemont
Some pairs went through the ring here today for $2,500 and even old cows are bring $1,500 a head and every time a calf hits the ground and it lives that is $1,000 bill.
When the cowboys are making money they spend it. Talk to the local Ford dealer and they can't keep pickups on the their lots.
Nemont
JoseCuervo
New member
Went to a Hereford bull sale in Feb. Had to park a mile away, the road was lined by the biggest collection of 3/4 and 1-ton new diesels pulling aluminum stock trailers.
Get out of the rig and start walking to the sale. Up pulls a big, brand new Dodge Mega Cab Diesel with all the toys. They tell us to hop in, give us new Dodge caps and get us to sign up for their drawing for some gift as they run us up to the barn. Yep, the Dodge dealer knows who has money right now, and sending all his sales guys to the Bull sale to be shuttle bus drivers is pretty effective marketing.
Oh, and by the way, 300 whiteface bulls averaged just over $5k.
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And a year ago, this little guy went for $600k........ and not even 100% of him.....
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