BHA Wild Sheep Policy Statement

[Oak]

There are studies that prove goats have and can transmit to wild sheep. Whether these are ‘pack’ goats or if it matters, I’m not sure.
They did transmit to wild sheep at a lower rate than domestic sheep did, however.

I’ll try to dig it up. If I recall, they were captive, nose to nose contacts performed in a study.

I addressed some issues related to goats in this post. Folks should read the paper I linked in that post, as well as the Rio Grande Gorge anecdote. I believe Kezia Manlove is writing a paper on the Gorge.

Dr. Thomas Besser at WSU did some studies with goats that showed that Wild sheep did contract disease from the domestic goats but it was a more mild reaction. It would have been interesting if he followed that up with a study that then exposed those same sheep (now recovered from the goat exposure) to domestic sheep with M. Ovi. to see if the goat exposure provided any immunity.

Several closed pen studies going back to 1994 have demonstrated no transmission of disease between llamas and wild sheep.

This is an overly broad statement given how some of the studies in the 90s were conducted, what they were measuring in those studies, and how our knowledge of emerging infectious diseases in camelids has improved since then.

 

[Cick1000]

Specifically ehat studies are you referring to that "have improved our knowledge of emerging infectious diseases in camelids since then"

I addressed some issues related to goats in this post. Folks should read the paper I linked in that post, as well as the Rio Grande Gorge anecdote. I believe Kezia Manlove is writing a paper on the Gorge.



This is an overly broad statement given how some of the studies in the 90s were conducted, what they were measuring in those studies, and how our knowledge of emerging infectious diseases in camelids has improved since then.

 

[Cick1000]

Specifically ehat studies are you referring to that "have improved our knowledge of emerging infectious diseases in camelids since then"

If you are referring to the Canadian studies that are still up on the wild sheep foundation website (as you referred to earlier in this thread) they have not been peer reviewed. I have this in writing from the authors. Which takes us right back to this:

Scientifically Illiterate America

Citizens must have a basic knowledge of science to understand today’s policy issues.

www.hoover.org

 

[Oak]

Specifically ehat studies are you referring to that "have improved our knowledge of emerging infectious diseases in camelids since then"

Garde, E., Kutz, S., Schwantje, H., Veitch, A., Jenkins, E., & Elkin, B. (2009). Examining the risk of
disease transmission between wild Dall's sheep and mountain goats, and introduced
domestic sheep, goats, and llamas in the northwest territories.

Byers, S. R., Snekvik, K. R., Righter, D. J., Evermann, J. F., Bradway, D. S., Parish, S. M., &
Barrington, G. M. (2009). Disseminated bovine viral diarrhea virus in a persistently
infected alpaca (vicugna pacos) cria. J Vet Diagn Invest, 21(1), 145-148.

Crossley, B. M., Mock, R. E., Callison, S. A., & Hietala, S. K. (2012). Identification and
characterization of a novel alpaca respiratory coronavirus most closely related to the
human coronavirus 229e. Viruses, 4(12), 3689-3700.

Lee, L. C., Scarratt, W. K., Buehring, G. C., & Saunders, G. K. (2012). Bovine leukemia virus
infection in a juvenile alpaca with multicentric lymphoma. The Canadian Veterinary
Journal, 53(3), 283-286.

van Amstel, S., & Kennedy, M. (2010). Bovine viral diarrhea infections in new world camelids—a
review. Small Ruminant Research, 91(2–3), 121-126.

Broughan, J. M., Downs, S. H., Crawshaw, T. R., Upton, P. A., Brewer, J., & Clifton-Hadley, R. S.
(2013). Mycobacterium bovis infections in domesticated non-bovine mammalian
species. Part 1: Review of epidemiology and laboratory submissions in Great Britain
2004-2010. Veterinary Journal, 198(2), 339-345.

I frankly don't have the bandwidth to continue to argue about whether we know everything or not about camelid diseases and their potential impacts on wild sheep populations. I contend that we don't, and I also stated earlier that any potential risk could probably be ameliorated by something as simple as a health certification program for llamas being used in occupied wild sheep habitat.

 

[MTGomer]

I addressed some issues related to goats in this post. Folks should read the paper I linked in that post, as well as the Rio Grande Gorge anecdote. I believe Kezia Manlove is writing a paper on the Gorge.



This is an overly broad statement given how some of the studies in the 90s were conducted, what they were measuring in those studies, and how our knowledge of emerging infectious diseases in camelids has improved since then.

Thanks Oak. I missed that thread I guess. @rwc101 meme is hilarious

 

[Cick1000]

That confirms what I suspected. You are still citing literature that has not been peer reviewed. Do you know what peer review is? Do you understand the significance of peer review as explained in the link that I provided? Furthermore, a list of these pathogens (and corresponding studies that might support a cause for alarm in an ignorant human population) can be made up for virtually any mammal on earth including humans. We have got a sheep problem here. It's people that act like sheep. They focus on something arbitrarily with their microscope and miss the big picture. It is a distorted risk perspective. You are choosing to focus your microscope on camelids. You could have cited a ton of research to make a case for emerging diseases in horses but you chose to pick on pack llamas instead. Horses have a long list of significant endemic diseases. Horses could cause a catastrophic die off of wild sheep. In contrast, pack llamas have no significant endemic diseases. You offer no credible evidence that would make a camelid more likely to spread disease to wild sheep than an equid. Camelids are not new or exotic to North America. They were here first before migrating to South America. Equids were here too but they became extinct. Portions of both families were reintroduced to North America. But you never hear people referring to horses as "exotic European equids".

 

[silasd]

There was an pneumonia outbreak in hells canyon caused by a domestic goat strain of Movi. That occurred while a domestic sheep strain was still in circulation. Theres some evidence suggesting goat strains may not be as virulent as the domestic sheep ones.

So what if goat packers were required to have a current vet certification that they were "clean" (movi free) in order to pack? Like you need for transporting livestock like sheep and goats across state lines?

 

[KB_]

So what if goat packers were required to have a current vet certification that they were "clean" (movi free) in order to pack? Like you need for transporting livestock like sheep and goats across state lines?

That is no different really then having proof of vaccination for rabies for your dogs. Seems reasonable. Might get pricy, but if you want pack goats it is what it is imo. Side note: very few things BHA agrees with is based on science. They make statements based on what they think is popular belief, kinda like our government officials. Keep going to those pint nights in your plaid outfits and camo vests and your hiking boots tho, cause ya'll are making a huge difference (sarcasm).

 

[silasd]

That is no different really then having proof of vaccination for rabies for your dogs. Seems reasonable. Might get pricy, but if you want pack goats it is what it is imo. Side note: very few things BHA agrees with is based on science. They make statements based on what they think is popular belief, kinda like our government officials. Keep going to those pint nights in your plaid outfits and camo vests and your hiking boots tho, cause ya'll are making a huge difference (sarcasm).

You know, I'm always up for a pint . . . but not so much while wearing plaid.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

That confirms what I suspected. You are still citing literature that has not been peer reviewed. Do you know what peer review is? Do you understand the significance of peer review as explained in the link that I provided?

Have you ever published anything have knowledge of how labs work?

Where and how you publish is complicated has a fair bit to do with how broad an audience you want to reach, your target audience and how novel your research is; to dismiss research published in medical journals/ reviews out of hand is ridiculous.

Also some of those are peer reviewed.

MDPI Viruses

MDPI | The Editorial Process

MDPI is a publisher of peer-reviewed, open access journals since its establishment in 1996.

www.mdpi.com

Lively debate is fine, but don't be a dick. Oak is a huge advocate for sheep and puts a ton of time and effort into the process.

The least you can do is argue like an adult.

If you have a problem with an article, just say "If you look at their methods, they did X, this is problematic because Y.

 

[Cick1000]

What is ridiculous is to dismiss out of hand the position that the Alaska Department of Fish and Game and the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners (representing 1000 veterinarians) have taken on this issue. You think they haven't looked at the pathogen papers that Oak is waving in my face? You think they are less qualified than Oak? So who is out of line here? Who has no concept of science? Who has no concept of civil liberties except as they might apply to themselves? Who is engaging in a witch hunt?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

What is ridiculous is to dismiss out of hand the position that the Alaska Department of Fish and Game and the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners (representing 1000 veterinarians) have taken on this issue.

While I recognize that research and our understanding of epidemiology is constantly changing, I think it's important to note that the Alaska Department of Fish and Game and the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners have an opposing position. I trust that both of these organizations are staffed with competent scientist that are aware of the literature, and that these professionals have taken the available research into account when promulgating policy.

FIFY

You think they are less qualified than Oak? So who is out of line here? Who has no concept of science? Who has no concept of civil liberties except as they might apply to themselves? Who is engaging in a witch hunt?

This is just being a dick.

 

[idelkslayer]

Garde, E., Kutz, S., Schwantje, H., Veitch, A., Jenkins, E., & Elkin, B. (2009). Examining the risk of
disease transmission between wild Dall's sheep and mountain goats, and introduced
domestic sheep, goats, and llamas in the northwest territories.

Byers, S. R., Snekvik, K. R., Righter, D. J., Evermann, J. F., Bradway, D. S., Parish, S. M., &
Barrington, G. M. (2009). Disseminated bovine viral diarrhea virus in a persistently
infected alpaca (vicugna pacos) cria. J Vet Diagn Invest, 21(1), 145-148.

Crossley, B. M., Mock, R. E., Callison, S. A., & Hietala, S. K. (2012). Identification and
characterization of a novel alpaca respiratory coronavirus most closely related to the
human coronavirus 229e. Viruses, 4(12), 3689-3700.

Lee, L. C., Scarratt, W. K., Buehring, G. C., & Saunders, G. K. (2012). Bovine leukemia virus
infection in a juvenile alpaca with multicentric lymphoma. The Canadian Veterinary
Journal, 53(3), 283-286.

van Amstel, S., & Kennedy, M. (2010). Bovine viral diarrhea infections in new world camelids—a
review. Small Ruminant Research, 91(2–3), 121-126.

Broughan, J. M., Downs, S. H., Crawshaw, T. R., Upton, P. A., Brewer, J., & Clifton-Hadley, R. S.
(2013). Mycobacterium bovis infections in domesticated non-bovine mammalian
species. Part 1: Review of epidemiology and laboratory submissions in Great Britain
2004-2010. Veterinary Journal, 198(2), 339-345.

I frankly don't have the bandwidth to continue to argue about whether we know everything or not about camelid diseases and their potential impacts on wild sheep populations. I contend that we don't, and I also stated earlier that any potential risk could probably be ameliorated by something as simple as a health certification program for llamas being used in occupied wild sheep habitat.

Thanks for the links, I have read the study for the northwest territories and the BC studies and the Alaska studies. I have read as many studies about llama/goat/sheep and bighorn sheep as I have been able to find. I have some scientific training although I am not a biologist. At any rate, I do not expect to change any minds today. I will put up some information and respectfully leave the discussion unless a direct response is requested. In the event that wildlife managers determine there is a need for a testing program for llamas, I'll comply. Curiosity already has me considering preemptively testing my animals.

I do question your earlier comment about M. Ovi prevalence in healthy bighorn sheep, and that it is the introduction of variants that cause outbreaks. Dr. Thomas Besser has studied the various disease agents to determine which ones threaten wild sheep and has identified M. Ovi as the primary agent for die-offs, linked below. This is recent work, M. Ovi was not previously considered as much as other bacteria because in his words, "However, prior to development and widespread use of molecular detection techniques, M. ovipneumoniae received little attention, probably because its fastidious nature rendered it difficult to isolate in culture" Previously the focus of bighorn disease was M. Haemolytica which is also carried by deer and elk, as well as the domestics sheep, goat, cattle, horse, llamas.. Dr. Bessers study shows a very low correlation between M Haemolytica and Bighorns die-offs by demonstrating that both healthy and diseased Bighorns carried the same levels of M haemolytica.

His comments here show a strong correlation to M. Ovi and die-offs:
"M. ovipneumoniae is strongly associated with pneumonia in bighorn sheep. The strength of association of M. ovipneumoniae was first investigated in a study of bighorn lambs collected in Hells Canyon (Besser et al., 2008). In addition to documenting the presence of M. ovipneumoniae in all pneumonic lambs but not in a healthy lamb, the study also included a serosurvey of nine additional pneumonic bighorn sheep populations, all of which exhibited high seroprevalence, and nine healthy bighorn sheep populations, all of which were seronegative. Subsequently, M. ovipneumoniae was detected in pneumonic lung tissues of >95% of 44 affected bighorn sheep lungs sampled in eight pneumonia epizootics that occurred in the western US during 2009–2010 but was absent in lung tissues of animals (N = 5) obtained from two populations unaffected by pneumonia (Besser et al., 2012b). Table 1 lists evidence of M. ovipneumoniae presence as tested by culture, PCR, or specific serologic antibodies in bighorn sheep populations of known health status from across western North America.

Exposure to M. ovipneumoniae was documented in all 36 populations tested that were classified as pneumonic by the wildlife officials submitting the diagnostic specimens, but in only 3 of 32 populations that were classified as healthy (P < 0.001; odds ratio ∞/undefined; 95% confidence interval = 31 −∞). 4.2. Temporality As reported above, in recent years since reliable diagnostic tools have been available, we have notidentified any bighorn sheep pneumonia outbreak in which M. ovipneumoniae was not detected in a high proportion of affected animals. In the retrospective serologic study reported in Besser et al. (2008), three populations were identified that remained seronegative up to the year preceding the first recognized pneumonia outbreak, following which all three populations developed high seroprevalence of M. ovipneumoniae specific antibody. Similarly, animals in the Asotin Creek population of Hells Canyon were repeatedly tested and remained seronegative and culture/PCR negative for M. ovipneumoniae prior to its first pneumonia outbreak in 2012, during which animals with pneumonia were PCR positive for M. ovipneumoniae and subsequent to which, surviving animals demonstrated seroconversion."

"The host range of M. ovipneumoniae is limited to Caprinae and the species colonizes domestic sheep flocks at high prevalence (Nicholas et al., 2008). As a result, domestic sheep, domestic goats, and mouflon are plausible biologic sources of this agent, whereas other ungulates, including domestic cattle, horses, llamas and wild Cervidae, are not"

https://s3.amazonaws.com/azgfd-portal-wordpress/PortalImages/files/wildlife/research/Reports/Besser%2C%20T_E_%2C%20et%20al_%2C%20Bighorn%20sheep%20pneumonia%20Sorting%20out%20the%20cause%20of%20a%20polymicrobial.pdf

 

[Cick1000]

While I recognize that research and our understanding of epidemiology is constantly changing, I think it's important to note that the Alaska Department of Fish and Game and the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners have an opposing position. I trust that both of these organizations are staffed with competent scientist that are aware of the literature, and that these professionals have taken the available research into account when promulgating policy.

FIFY

So two organizations with qualified staff (ADF&G and AASRP) have a position that is in opposition to a couple of hunting organizations (WSF and BHA) with membership and staff that are unqualified. The membership of WSF and BHA need to digest that. How does that jive with their mission statements that call for use of the best available science? Could it be that disease is being used as a guise for other motives?

 

[Cick1000]

So two organizations with qualified staff (ADF&G and AASRP) have a position that is in opposition to a couple of hunting organizations (WSF and BHA) with membership and staff that are unqualified. The membership of WSF and BHA need to digest that. How does that jive with their mission statements that call for use of the best available science? Could it be that disease is being used as a guise for other motives?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So two organizations with qualified staff (ADF&G and AASRP) have a position that is in opposition to a couple of hunting organizations (WSF and BHA) with membership and staff that are unqualified. The membership of WSF and BHA need to digest that. How does that jive with their mission statements that call for use of the best available science? Could it be that disease is being used as a guise for other motives?

ADF&G you referenced, reads "we will continue to focus and enhance our evaluation of disease risk from species other than llamas or related camelids. There is not enough information presented in this report of other current publications to warrant spending additional resources on the issue."

If you look through the documents on the ADFG website it's clear that at least some component of their stance on epidemiological policy as it relates to livestock is political expediency rather than science. https://dec.alaska.gov/eh/vet/movi.aspx.

Given the nature of fish and game departments this is not surprising. No fish and game department in the country is allowed to craft policy by scientifically informed fiat.

AASRP Statement


Here are MICHELLE KUTZLER comments as you referenced.

https://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/Region_7/NWRS/Zone_1/Arctic/PDF/PackAnReg%20May13%20transcript.pdf

"There is abundant scientific evidence to support transmission
of disease between domestic sheep and goats and wild Dall sheep
and mountain goats, there is no direct evidence in the
peer-reviewed scientific literature to support any assertion
that disease transmission occurs between camelids and wild
sheep or goat populations."

I don't think it's off based to assume that the reason she couched her statement (just as AASRP couched their's in the official message, and how ADFG couched their's) is that there is evidence in scientific literature, just not literature in published peer reviewed studies.
-------------------------------------------------
"membership and staff that are unqualified" I just went to the home page of each group and briefly scrolled through some bios... are the vast majority of the members of BHA and WSF unqualified, Probably?.

Staff: unqualified seems like a bold claim...

WSF
CLAY BREWER, CONSERVATION DIRECTOR, BHS PROGRAMS LEAD: 25 years of service with Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
TPWD’s state-wide Bighorn Sheep Program Leader
Wild Sheep Working Group Chair (2011-2016)
Desert Bighorn Council Technical Staff Chair

KURT ALT, CONSERVATION DIR., MT & INT. SHEEP & GOAT PROGRAMS: 32 years (35 unofficially) for Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks,
serving as a wildlife area manager, wildlife biologist, and the Wildlife Manager for southwest Montana.
He has been responsible for managing wild sheep and goat populations throughout western Montana including Montana’s unlimited bighorn sheep seasons.

BHA Alaska
Joseph M. Eisaguirre
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service · Marine Mammal Management Program
PhD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everything aside, I'm going to give each group the benefit of the doubt. I'm not surprised at AGF&Gs stance, based on the role of the agency. I understand AASRP's position as well I think they have a good point about peer reviewed studies.

I also understand that sheep population's in the US have struggled with disease.

"Could it be that disease is being used as a guise for other motives?"

No I don't think that these organizations have other motives, I think they have different risk tolerances. WSF tolerance is low, they are a sheep advocacy group. Given that we have recovered elk and a phenomenal rate over the last 100 years, but struggled to make meaningful headway with sheep I think some caution is reasonable.

I respect different opinions on risk, the debate should focus on risk and we should strive to respectfully argue the facts, character attacks are unproductive.

 

[Cick1000]

The Alaska Department of Fish and Game is tasked with managing all of the thinhorn sheep in the US. You say that they manage with political expediency and you state (or at least imply) that WSF policy positions do not involve politics. WSF represents the guiding industry. It's all about money. So that would make WSF way more politically motived than ADF&G. To ADF&G's credit they refuse to adopt this WSF position even though WSF feeds them tons of money through tag auctions. I would give them kudo's for not caving in to WSF politics and sticking up to a small user group that has almost no political influence. I would venture to guess that the majority of WSF and BHA members, especially guides, would like to see pack llamas eliminated (because they see hunters with pack llamas as competition) or they simply don't care because they are not personally affected by a pack llama prohibition or restriction. Is there anyone out there in BHA and WSF that has the kahoonas to get in the face of their leadership on this issue?
So you have quoted only some of the positions of record from ADF&G and Dr. Kutzler on this issue. I noticed that you didn't quote what Dr. Kutzler said about horses and you have been skirting that particular issue. Again, you are selectively holding pack llamas to a different standard than horses. Quite ironically, the people behind this movement to prohibit or restrict pack llamas typically treat our user group as if we are the aggressors and acuse us of being way out of line. We (our user group) is not trying to restrict your user group and your access to wild sheep hunting areas. WSF and BHA is trying to do this to our user group and they are doing it in direct opposition to the official position of these leading wildlife authorities. We are a legitimate user group that has been deemed safe by these leading wildlife authorities. We are only asking for fair treatment.

 

[Oak]

I do question your earlier comment about M. Ovi prevalence in healthy bighorn sheep, and that it is the introduction of variants that cause outbreaks.

That's not exactly what I said.

Just because a pathogen already exists in the environment doesn't mean that there is no risk from introducing livestock that carries the same pathogen. For example, many, many bighorn sheep herds in the West test positive for the Mycoplasma ovipneumniae bacteria, but can still suffer catastrophic die-offs when a new strain of the bacteria is introduced. That's pretty common knowledge.

Herds that have been previously exposed to Movi but have somewhat recovered can suffer a die-off if exposed to a different strain of Movi. Check out the attached peer-reviewed paper.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The Alaska Department of Fish and Game is tasked with managing all of the thin horn sheep in the US. You say that they manage with political expediency and you state (or at least imply) that WSF policy positions do not involve politics. WSF represents the guiding industry. It's all about money. So that would make WSF way more politically motived than ADF&G. To ADF&G's credit they refuse to adopt this WSF position even though WSF feeds them tons of money through tag auctions. I would give them kudo's for not caving in to WSF politics and sticking up to a small user group that has almost no political influence. I would venture to guess that the majority of WSF and BHA members, especially guides, would like to see pack llamas eliminated (because they see hunters with pack llamas as competition) or they simply don't care because they are not personally affected by a pack llama prohibition or restriction. Is there anyone out there in BHA and WSF that has the kahoonas to get in the face of their leadership on this issue?
So you have quoted only some of the positions of record from ADF&G and Dr. Kutzler on this issue. I noticed that you didn't quote what Dr. Kutzler said about horses and you have been skirting that particular issue. Again, you are selectively holding pack llamas to a different standard than horses. Quite ironically, the people behind this movement to prohibit or restrict pack llamas typically treat our user group as if we are the aggressors and acuse us of being way out of line. We (our user group) is not trying to restrict your user group and your access to wild sheep hunting areas. WSF and BHA is trying to do this to our user group and they are doing it in direct opposition to the official position of these leading wildlife authorities. We are a legitimate user group that has been deemed safe by these leading wildlife authorities. We are only asking for fair treatment.

Wasn't trying to omit anything, here's the full quote. My intent was to demonstrate different levels of risk, hence the quote I selected.

"I would completely agree with the Garde document that says -- and I quote, the risk assessment from the Garde, et al., document, indicates that contact between domestic sheep or goats and wild Dall sheep or mountain goats would likely result in significant disease in the wild species. And that particular document advises -- and, again, this is a direct quote -- that domestic goats not be used as pack animals and domestic sheep and goats not be pastured anywhere near Dall sheep. But then goes on to speculate that an additional association would also occur with camelid species. And as I reiterated, the risk of the disease transmission..."

"Indeed, one of the most important pathogens to Dall sheep, Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae or, simply, MOV, has never been reported in camel -- in camelids. It’s also important to emphasize, as been mentioned by others, that horses are actually a greater risk than camelids to wild Dall sheep and mountain goats, as horses have several endemic diseases that can be transmitted to those wild species. And it’s also important to consider that humans develop infections that can also be transmitted to wild sheep. So if the intent of this prohibition is to protect these wild species, then it must also include preventing human and horses be in these areas, as well. Considering that this will not be included in the prohibition, there’s no reason to also include camelids."

I'm not buying that BHA and WSF are trying to limit my or anyone else's access. Is it possible that someone in WSF sees this as killing two birds with one stone and cutting off some DIY Alaska Residents from some areas that guides like to take their clients using horses... maybe? Though honestly I don't think llamas is the make or break factor there. Also, Oak lives in CO and is part of a different organization (maybe WSF as well I don't know), and certainly not an outfitter shill as your allusions seem to suggest.

We (our user group) is not trying to restrict your user group and your access to wild sheep hunting areas.

So this is awkward...

Llama Drama - A Tale of Sloth

So after grinding out my muley hunt I decided I no longer wanted to carry heavy things. I debated getting a lighter rifle, tried to rethink what was in my pack, briefly (very briefly) considering going to the gym more per @JLS and @Europe 's advice... but that didn't really sound enjoyable. So...

www.hunttalk.com

Llama Drama - Part Deux The Lazy Bugler

Very well done - congrats!!

www.hunttalk.com

 

[Cick1000]

Wasn't trying to omit anything, here's the full quote. My intent was to demonstrate different levels of risk, hence the quote I selected.

"I would completely agree with the Garde document that says -- and I quote, the risk assessment from the Garde, et al., document, indicates that contact between domestic sheep or goats and wild Dall sheep or mountain goats would likely result in significant disease in the wild species. And that particular document advises -- and, again, this is a direct quote -- that domestic goats not be used as pack animals and domestic sheep and goats not be pastured anywhere near Dall sheep. But then goes on to speculate that an additional association would also occur with camelid species. And as I reiterated, the risk of the disease transmission..."

"Indeed, one of the most important pathogens to Dall sheep, Mycoplasma ovipneumoniae or, simply, MOV, has never been reported in camel -- in camelids. It’s also important to emphasize, as been mentioned by others, that horses are actually a greater risk than camelids to wild Dall sheep and mountain goats, as horses have several endemic diseases that can be transmitted to those wild species. And it’s also important to consider that humans develop infections that can also be transmitted to wild sheep. So if the intent of this prohibition is to protect these wild species, then it must also include preventing human and horses be in these areas, as well. Considering that this will not be included in the prohibition, there’s no reason to also include camelids."

I'm not buying that BHA and WSF are trying to limit my or anyone else's access. Is it possible that someone in WSF sees this as killing two birds with one stone and cutting off some DIY Alaska Residents from some areas that guides like to take their clients using horses... maybe? Though honestly I don't think llamas is the make or break factor there. Also, Oak lives in CO and is part of a different organization (maybe WSF as well I don't know), and certainly not an outfitter shill as your allusions seem to suggest.



So this is awkward...

Llama Drama - A Tale of Sloth

So after grinding out my muley hunt I decided I no longer wanted to carry heavy things. I debated getting a lighter rifle, tried to rethink what was in my pack, briefly (very briefly) considering going to the gym more per @JLS and @Europe 's advice... but that didn't really sound enjoyable. So...

www.hunttalk.com

Llama Drama - Part Deux The Lazy Bugler

Very well done - congrats!!

www.hunttalk.com

Not sure what the point of these posts are and how that relates to this discussion. I thought this was a hunting website. If this offends you maybe you should redirect your campaign toward horse hunters and hunters on 4 wheelers, in boats, etc. At least a hunter with pack llamas has to walk in as opposed to riding in on horseback or driving in.