Bankruptcies of Canadian Guides and Outfitters?

[TheGrayRider]

Are any Canadian outfitters filing bankruptcy yet with their latest list of travel restrictions and their ongoing shut down of nonresident travel and hunting for the second year?

Also, any possible recourse for hunters and travelers who prepaid expensive hunts before the virus hit? SOL?

 

[OntarioHunter]

I am in Canada and technically still on for a second Africa hunting trip in July. I still haven't booked flights. The outfitter has had my deposit since last year when he had to cancel (obvious reasons) and I don't have a problem with that. He needs the money to keep afloat. In fact, if I can get in to the bank this week, I'll wire him another thousand. Eventually it will work out. Canadian hunters could not drive to US but they were able to fly across the border. Totally nuts but that encapsulates the last administration's response to COVID. Biden put a stop to it. US hunters were/are not able to come to Canada and hunt, either drive or fly. I crossed back and forth to hunt this past fall because 1) I'm a US citizen and 2) Canadian landed immigrant and 3) quarantined at residence for two weeks when I returned. Unless things change I probably won't be able to do that again this fall.

Are Canadian outfitters going broke? Probably not many. They typically get a lot of domestic clients too. Some jurisdictions lost a large chunk of that business when their provincial borders were closed to nonessential traffic (e.g. Manitoba and Atlantic provinces). But our governments have provided a lot of relief for COVID impacted businesses. I'm sure outfitters are having challenging times but as far as I know the fishing lodges around here all managed to stay afloat. Fishing was certainly a lot more enjoyable with much less boat traffic on the lakes.

 

[Sasquatchewan]

They're definitely taking a huge hit right now. 99% of Canadian outfitters advertise their hunts in USD, shows who their main audience is. From what I've seen, a lot of outfitters had to reduce their prices by large margins to sell some hunts and not all those hunts were filled. I guarantee you that last spring's bear hunts were not all filled by Canadian non-residents/residents. I've also read that some outfits had to lay off a lot of their staff to stay afloat... Losing two spring and one fall season (so far) will hurt them a lot. I can't see travel restrictions lifting anytime before July and even then, there might be strict rules in effect.

Since last spring, all three territories have had their travel highly restricted to Canadians coming in from other provinces, I'm sure those guys up north are feeling this very hard... As for provinces, they may be fairing a little bit better with somewhat "free" travel during the hunting seasons but I guarantee those guys are feeling it too. I wish this pandemic were over but the overwhelming majority of Canadians are in favour of the border closure, to be quite frank, we've been doing very well all things considered and most Canadians see the trend south of the border and do not want to open the floodgates.

 

[NoWiser]

The Canadian outfitters that I am friends with get basically zero domestic clients. They are hurting, bad, and I feel horrible for them. They are good people and it doesn't sound like they are getting much help.

 

[Nick87]

Hopefully they will make it through, shouldnt be long as things are magically opening up in the last week or so. At least around me they are.

 

[Sasquatchewan]

The Canadian outfitters that I am friends with get basically zero domestic clients. They are hurting, bad, and I feel horrible for them. They are good people and it doesn't sound like they are getting much help.

The reality is that for the average Canadian hunters, it's just too expensive to hunt with an outfitter. Especially with high USD prices where we get destroyed on the exchange rate. A lot of provinces won't allow canadian non-residents to hunt without an outfitter, I was hoping some outfitters would take a different approach for Canadian only cancellation hunts but most didn't. I hope not too many outfitters go under but I feel a lot might.

 

[Sasquatchewan]

Hopefully they will make it through, shouldnt be long as things are magically opening up in the last week or so. At least around me they are.

Nope, things are getting worst here in terms of travel restrictions. The Gov't implemented massive restrictions on international travel that took effect yesterday.

 

[noharleyyet]

COVID-19 Tracker Canada - Vaccination Tracker

Real-time COVID-19 vaccination updates for every region in Canada, tracking doses of Moderna, Pfizer-BioNTech and AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine delivered and administered to Canadians.

covid19tracker.ca

 

[Panda Bear]

They're definitely taking a huge hit right now. 99% of Canadian outfitters advertise their hunts in USD, shows who their main audience is. From what I've seen, a lot of outfitters had to reduce their prices by large margins to sell some hunts and not all those hunts were filled. I guarantee you that last spring's bear hunts were not all filled by Canadian non-residents/residents. I've also read that some outfits had to lay off a lot of their staff to stay afloat... Losing two spring and one fall season (so far) will hurt them a lot. I can't see travel restrictions lifting anytime before July and even then, there might be strict rules in effect.

Since last spring, all three territories have had their travel highly restricted to Canadians coming in from other provinces, I'm sure those guys up north are feeling this very hard... As for provinces, they may be fairing a little bit better with somewhat "free" travel during the hunting seasons but I guarantee those guys are feeling it too. I wish this pandemic were over but the overwhelming majority of Canadians are in favour of the border closure, to be quite frank, we've been doing very well all things considered.

I agree ----

The one thing that will help them a bit, is if your a Canadian you can now fly into the Yukon, and "quarantine " for 14 days --at the hunt camp, while your hunting.

How many of you would be willing to quarantine for 14 days while hunting sheep ?

What is surprising however is the prices have not gone down. Just yesterday a friend was quoted 45000.00 for a Stone Sheep Hunt, but if you were able to harvest a moose, grizzly and/or caribou while on the sheep hunt, you would only have to pay an additional 7500 for the moose, 7500 for the grizzly , 5500 for the caribou, but you would be allowed to kill 7 wolves free

As to your question about getting your money back. Again depends on the outfitter. If you have already paid in full, I would like to believe that under the circumstances he would allow you to hunt at a later time, when the travel restrictions have been lifted, but there may be additional money to be paid at that time. A ton of unknown circumstances involved.

If you cancel the hunt and have paid in full, then you need to read the booking agreement you signed before sending the money to determine how much you will get back. If he refuses to return anything to you even if the booking agreement says that he will if you cancel the booking, then contact an attorney

 

[BigHornRam]

I came across this article recently that I found to be informative and well written.

The Canadian Outfitters Who Survived 2020 Are Rewarded with Another Uncertain Season - Hunting and Fishing News & Blog Articles - HuntPost

Canadian outfitters, who rely heavily on their American clientele to stay in business, were hard-pressed to drum up business this year. (Rachel Ahtila/)Editor’s

www.huntpost.com

 

[Sasquatchewan]

I agree ----

The one thing that will help them a bit, is if your a Canadian you can now fly into the Yukon, and "quarantine " for 14 days --at the hunt camp, while your hunting.

The thing is, non-resident OTC hunting in BC, AB, SK, NWT, YT, NU and to some extent MB, is almost non-existent. Canadian Provinces and Territories have very strict rules when it comes to non-resident, they either allow it in very limited amount or it MUST be with a guide or resident sponsor/guide. At the end of the day, very few Canadians travel to other provinces for hunting OTC because the rules are so strict, this translates in our outfitting industry in little interest to book guides. Canada just doesn't have the same non-resident DIY mentality as the US. I wish I could OTC/DIY hunts here in Canada in other Provinces, but I can't, I have to cross the border and give them my money. I think Provinces are missing out on some Canadian dollars when it comes to non-resident draw apps.

 

[Panda Bear]

The thing is, non-resident OTC hunting in BC, AB, SK, NWT, YT, NU and to some extent MB, is almost non-existent. Canadian Provinces and Territories have very strict rules when it comes to non-resident, they either allow it in very limited amount or it MUST be with a guide or resident sponsor/guide. At the end of the day, very few Canadians travel to other provinces for hunting OTC because the rules are so strict, this translates in our outfitting industry in little interest to book guides. Canada just doesn't have the same non-resident DIY mentality as the US. I wish I could OTC/DIY hunts here in Canada in other Provinces, but I can't, I have to cross the border and give them my money. I think Provinces are missing out on some Canadian dollars when it comes to non-resident draw apps.

your right

perhaps I should have said. A Canadian can fly into The Yukon and do his 14 day quarantine while on his hunt in the mountains BUT-- only with an outfitter, He can not fly in from a different Province and hunt alone. I was actually trying to be a bit sarcastic in my first post --"thanks, appreciate the gesture---but, who can afford it ?"

 

[Gellar]

I read in the Duluth MN newspaper a week ago or so that the tourism agencies in northwest Ontario were warning fish camp and outfitters to be ready for another closed year. According to the article 95% of visitors are from US and most outfitters have not been able to redirect marketing to Canadians because it is so far from major Canadian markets.

Ontario resorts brace for possible second summer of border shutdown | Duluth News Tribune - Granthshala USA

But not this year, not under the cloud of a rapid epidemic. "It's kind of terrible to be on my desk in January," said Paul Pepe, manager of Tourism

granthshala.com

 

[schmalts]

I feel bad for them but really, they are in a long list of other businesses that are hurting just as bad. I have a couple close friends that had to close the doors and file BK

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

What is surprising however is the prices have not gone down. Just yesterday a friend was quoted 45000.00 for a Stone Sheep Hunt, but if you were able to harvest a moose, grizzly and/or caribou while on the sheep hunt, you would only have to pay an additional 7500 for the moose, 7500 for the grizzly , 5500 for the caribou, but you would be allowed to kill 7 wolves free

Just out of curiosity, do you have any idea at the profit margin on a Stone Sheep Hunt?

It is just that your doing multiple bush flights + horses+ time + personal + permits + equipment + insurance/ limited number of clients. Like does the whole shooting match cost the outfitter 90k a season and then they only have 4 clients so really the owner is making 90k or is it supply and demand and a good operation is generating 80-90% profit and netting over 1MM a season?

I ask because growing up in a mountain town I found that most in the "guiding" type industries rafting/skiing/hunting etc. were more doing it because they loved it and weren't really making all that much money. Often ski guides, even the owners were doing construction on the side and making way more money doing that.

The big exception obviously are the big corporate operations.

Also 45k for a stone sheep may seem bad, but when I worked for Vail Resorts the company estimated that the average family of 4 coming for a 7 day ski trip and staying at the resort (not a motel 6) was spending 25k.

 

[Sasquatchewan]

Some of those hunts are very expensive for a reason. Those guiding outfits pay for the hunting lease as well as all other expenses involved with making people comfortable 20 miles away from any trails.

Provinces and Territories regulate their non-res hunting the way they want and often times it's in favour of guides. A lot of guides up north are indigenous and that's a way to provide them with work and essentially keep people up there and employed. I still think Provinces and Territories could open things up to non-residents without being babysat by a guide, my own Province included. Saskatchewan could have very limited non-resident opportunities for mule deer, moose, whitetail, etc, and would make a killing in application revenues, tags fees, etc.

 

[sneakypete]

I agree ----

The one thing that will help them a bit, is if your a Canadian you can now fly into the Yukon, and "quarantine " for 14 days --at the hunt camp, while your hunting.

How many of you would be willing to quarantine for 14 days while hunting sheep ?

What is surprising however is the prices have not gone down. Just yesterday a friend was quoted 45000.00 for a Stone Sheep Hunt, but if you were able to harvest a moose, grizzly and/or caribou while on the sheep hunt, you would only have to pay an additional 7500 for the moose, 7500 for the grizzly , 5500 for the caribou, but you would be allowed to kill 7 wolves free

As to your question about getting your money back. Again depends on the outfitter. If you have already paid in full, I would like to believe that under the circumstances he would allow you to hunt at a later time, when the travel restrictions have been lifted, but there may be additional money to be paid at that time. A ton of unknown circumstances involved.

If you cancel the hunt and have paid in full, then you need to read the booking agreement you signed before sending the money to determine how much you will get back. If he refuses to return anything to you even if the booking agreement says that he will if you cancel the booking, then contact an attorney

Most outfitters are moving hunts to the next year! 45k for a Stone hunt is right there if not on the low end of cost! Its been tough on all, outfitter, there crews and most have a large herd of horses to feed!

 

[ida homer]

Agreed @wllm1313

I honestly don’t think most outfitters net much to begin with. I bet the yearly take home is relatively similar to an actual job.

Going rate for a WY elk hunt is $6-9k, +/-. While that is a lot of money for us, their overhead is steep. 2 horses per hunter, food, camp cook, pay the guide, extra wrangler in camp, all the gas and time to pack in tents before the season, hay, etc. I bet you that 7500 turns into a 2 or 3k net profit pretty quick, maybe less?

I bet there are some guys on here that guided in their younger days that could shed some light.

 

[44hunter45]

Also 45k for a stone sheep may seem bad, but when I worked for Vail Resorts the company estimated that the average family of 4 coming for a 7 day ski trip and staying at the resort (not a motel 6) was spending 25k.

That is roughly half the mean income of an Idaho family. We'll leave the light on for you.

 

[RaiderRich]

Nope, things are getting worst here in terms of travel restrictions. The Gov't implemented massive restrictions on international travel that took effect yesterday.

I think the new variants of the virus have politicians and people spooked. Hopefully as vaccination rates rise the restrictions will start to ease. Living in Vegas, I know how devastating the loss of business due to travel restrictions can be.