Attack on the Feds independence

[BuzzH]

You have never made payroll, have you Buzz?
Going bankrupt doesn't help out the employees much.

Do the work yourself if you can't afford to pay better.

As everyone knows, a business dies from the neck up, every, single, time.

 

[BigHornRam]

Right, at a snails pace, rarely keeping up with inflation...or about 12% since 1978, as it were.

So now you agree we have an inflation problem. The other you said we didn't.

"Again, in my opinion, you've done a very good job of over simplifying the problem and reasons why we got here. It sure as chit isn't inflation. "

 

[BuzzH]

Labo unions do the same thing for their entry level people...

Union Carpenter Pay Scale Throughout Apprenticeship​

Union carpenter pay scales during apprenticeship vary by local union, region, and collective bargaining agreements, but generally follow a progressive structure based on years of training and performance.

Typical Apprenticeship Wage Progression​

• First Year: Typically 60% of the journeyman wage rate.
• Second Year: Increases to 65–70%.
• Third Year: Rises to 75–80%.
• Fourth Year: Reaches 90–95% of the journeyman rate, often nearing full journeyman pay upon completion.

Regional Examples​

• NOR CAL Carpenters Union (Effective July 1, 2025):
  • 1st Period (0–6 months): 60% of journeyman wage, $39.76/hour.
  • 2nd Period (7–12 months): 65%, $43.07/hour.
  • 3rd Period (13–18 months): 70%, $46.38/hour.
  • 4th Period (19–24 months): 75%, $49.70/hour.
  • 5th–8th Periods (25–48 months): Progressively increases to 95%, $62.95/hour.
• Washington State (Effective June 1, 2024):
  • 1st Period (0–6 months): 60% of journeyman rate, $30.96/hour.
  • 8th Period (43–48 months): 95%, $52.50/hour.
• Chicago Region (Effective June 1, 2021):
  • 1st Year: 40% of journeyman wage, $20.34/hour.
  • 4th Year: 80%, $40.69/hou

Great, how many of those employees are buying a home with a years wages, while their wife is home raising their 2 kids?

Answer: NONE

 

[BuzzH]

So now you agree we have an inflation problem. The other you said we didn't.

"Again, in my opinion, you've done a very good job of over simplifying the problem and reasons why we got here. It sure as chit isn't inflation. "

Inflation isn't an issue if wages out pace it...are you really that dumb?

 

[WyoCoalMiner]

25/hour = $52,0000 for a no skill job sounds pretty good to me especially if a person has the opportunity to learn new skills and advance.

This is exactly what we do. Yes, pushing a broom, running the floor sweeper and gathering parts is a pretty low skill job. But most don't last long, in that role. They start helping out on oil changes, then routine PM work. Then we move them to the apprentice level where they get even greater skills and responsibilities. Then if the desire they work in Supervisor and Manager roles. This is exactly how our current Maintenance Mgr. got his job. We didn't invent this method. Its practiced all around this state, country, world, and it works great. Has been the method for upward mobility in the US for around 250 years. Much harder to do when your laborer can't pass an eligibility check to get his MSHA certification.

 

[BigHornRam]

Inflation isn't an issue if wages out pace it...are you really that dumb?

I challenge you to start a business and show us all how it is done.

 

[BuzzH]

Once again this is factually false. Our shop laborers take vacations, drive cars to work, have families, have hobbies, get to hunt, fish, etc. Just like you and I. The ones with ambition and drive move to more skilled jobs, with a higher wage and get to take advantage of even more opportunities than they had as a laborer. Just like you did when you started out. Same as me. Sounds remarkably similar to how my father and mother made it through life. Bet it rings true for your family as well.

However, even the ones that want nothing more than the laborer responsibilities can benefit. To the same extent as a journeyman mechanic? Nope but that was their choice.

If you think the playing field is as level now as 20-30-40 years ago, you're just not thinking and denying reality.

If that's true, that they're "just like you and I", then how many of your employees at $25/hour live in a 4k square foot home, fish Alaska every year, drive 2 new vehicles, hunt 3-4 states a year, have a large chunk of money in retirement accounts, etc?

I just don't think they're having the same opportunities that I have/had...there's a significant gap there, and its been getting wider my whole life. It's not all their fault either.

I'm just shit-house lucky I wasn't too far behind the curve when I was getting started.

I can't have contempt, like others seem to have, for people that clearly don't have the same opportunities I was lucky to have. Opportunities mainly having more to do with birthdate than any other factor. One of my many flaws I suppose.

 

[rjthehunter]

If you think the playing field is as level now as 20-30-40 years ago, you're just not thinking and denying reality.

If that's true, that they're "just like you and I", then how many of your employees at $25/hour live in a 4k square foot home, fish Alaska every year, drive 2 new vehicles, hunt 3-4 states a year, have a large chunk of money in retirement accounts, etc?

I just don't think they're having the same opportunities that I have/had...there's a significant gap there, and its been getting wider my whole life.

I'm just shit-house lucky I wasn't too far behind the curve when I was getting started.

I can't have contempt, like others seem to have, for people that clearly don't have the same opportunities I was lucky to have. Opportunities mainly having more to do with birthdate than any other factor. One of my many flaws I suppose.

I know plenty of people my age who have set themselves up very nicely as have I. Get a good job, do a good job, and be rewarded for it. There's no "curve" to be behind or in front of.

My sister is a nurse, her husband works in farm supply, and they have 4 kids and a beautiful house. They take trips, have loaded retirement accounts and are only a few years older than I am.

If you think you're going to work an entry level job and make a living for a family of 4, you're wrong. That's make believe land and nowhere near reality.

 

[Handlebar]

52k for a starting out unskilled labor position is roughly equal to $16800.00 dollars in 1983 when I hit the labor force which is right at $8 an hour. A starting wage never brought a twice the national average house two cars and a fishing vacation to Alaska.

 

[406dn]

What a silly statement. What is the hourly wage for labor that would not be demeaning.

You are the one saying no skill job.

When I retired 13 years ago, my hourly wage was ~$40/hour, plus benefits. That provided a very decent life for our family. Of course, my wife also worked.

I felt at that time, that I was making about as little as one could, and still pull ahead , over time. I have no complaints about my lot in life. Most people working for an hourly wage have not done so well.

 

[Handlebar]

You are the one saying no skill job.

When I retired 13 years ago, my hourly wage was ~$40/hour, plus benefits. That provided a very decent life for our family. Of course, my wife also worked.

I felt at that time, that I was making about as little as one could, and still pull ahead , over time. I have no complaints about my lot in life. Most people working for an hourly wage have not done so well.

The original post talked about a shop laborer generally assumed to be a no or low skill position.

 

[WyoCoalMiner]

If you think the playing field is as level now as 20-30-40 years ago, you're just not thinking and denying reality.

I never said that. I know that its different. Just don't have the same defeatist attitude you do.

If that's true, how many of your employees at $25/hour live in a 4k square foot home, fish Alaska every year, drive 2 new vehicles, hunt 3-4 states a year, etc?

None. Did you when you were starting out? I know I didn't. Took me a bunch of years to get to where I am at. How many for you to attain this status?

I just don't think they're having the same opportunities that I have/had...there's a significant gap there, and its been getting wider my whole life.

There are many gaps between the haves and have nots that are widening over time. Wealth gap is for sure one, just not a metric I would concern myself with. Education, family structure, illegal immigrant workers as a percentage of total, manufacturing. Those are more important, in my mind.

 

[WyoCoalMiner]

I'm just shit-house lucky I wasn't too far behind the curve when I was getting started.

I can't have contempt, like others seem to have, for people that clearly don't have the same opportunities I was lucky to have. Opportunities mainly having more to do with birthdate than any other factor. One of my many flaws I suppose.

I suspect the only lucky thing you had going for you was having quality parents.

I am sure you have been dealt a tough hand a time or two. I know I have been. But you managed to navigate it. You made smart choices at an early age, and progressed. Hard work, education, and time got you to where you are today. Lord knows you love to tell HT and MM how hard you work. Achieving what you have did not come by accident or luck but rather by design.

At least that is my assumption. Please let me know if I got this wrong and you just bumblefuck your way through your day.

 

[BuzzH]

I never said that. I know that its different. Just don't have the same defeatist attitude you do.

None. Did you when you were starting out? I know I didn't. Took me a bunch of years to get to where I am at. How many for you to attain this status?

There are many gaps between the haves and have nots that are widening over time. Wealth gap is for sure one, just not a metric I would concern myself with. Education, family structure, illegal immigrant workers as a percentage of total, manufacturing. Those are more important, in my mind.

As a matter of fact, yes.

I paid for over half a guided dall sheep hunt with the best outfitter in Alaska with a 2 week fire check playing Pulaski motor.

Think that gap hasn't widened?

You think 2 week fire checks pay for 65% of a dall sheep these days?

 

[Bonasababy]

More Winning...

Trump is threatening tariffs on any country supporting Greenland now.

Today is one month after all the Eppstein files were supposed to have been released

 

[BuzzH]

I never said that. I know that its different. Just don't have the same defeatist attitude you do.

None. Did you when you were starting out? I know I didn't. Took me a bunch of years to get to where I am at. How many for you to attain this status?

There are many gaps between the haves and have nots that are widening over time. Wealth gap is for sure one, just not a metric I would concern myself with. Education, family structure, illegal immigrant workers as a percentage of total, manufacturing. Those are more important, in my mind.

As a matter of fact, yes.

I paid for over half a guided dall sheep hunt with the best outfitter in Alaska with a 2 week fire check playing Pulaski motor.

Think that gap hasn't widened?

You think many people scratching fire line are paying 65% of a dall sheep hunt with 2 weeks pay?

I know they aren't.

Another perfect example of wages not keeping pace with much of anything, houses, vehicles, clothing, food, insurance, rent, etc.

The one exception may be Montana Resident deer ($16) and elk ($20) tags...I'll give you that one.

 

[406dn]

There are many gaps between the haves and have nots that are widening over time. Wealth gap is for sure one, just not a metric I would concern myself with. Education, family structure, illegal immigrant workers as a percentage of total, manufacturing. Those are more important, in my mind.

All of them are intertwined, I think. Education is one part society's obligation to the next generation, one part each student's best effort. Often both fall short. But, there are times when the student is shortchanged by political decisions, out of their control.

Another factor is that each of us makes decisions every day on how to handle our financial affairs. Some do it wisely, others not so much.

Any general observation, informs me that our society at large, is unhealthy. It shows up in all sorts of metrics, from suicide rates, drug overdoses, divorce rates, yada, yada.

 

[Irrelevant]

You have never made payroll, have you Buzz?
Going bankrupt doesn't help out the employees much.

Wait, didn't this entire discussion start off with a claim about CEO compensation? It wasn't about bankruptcy.

But I'll admit, I can't figure out what this thread is actually talking about anymore or why. It's really just Blue Team vs Red Team.

From a wage stand point American's are not better off now than a generation (or two) ago. But we've had substantial increases in non-wage benefits, like healthcare and time off, groceries are cheaper now than previously, cars are cheaper and more reliable. And the American dream is absolutely still attainable for people willing to work hard and make good choices.

I swear some people will die on the stake that America sucks, while others would cut off their head before admitting it's not all peaches and sunshine and we're almost certainly not the best place to be born anymore.

 

[Bonasababy]

Big day at the SCUS tomorrow. They agreed to hear a case that may decide if the president has authority to

1) fire a federal reserve Governor, and

2) potentially may decide this tomorrow as well...whether he has the right to establish tariffs by imposing an emergency...without congress... under the emergency economic powers act.

Get this...they are arguing that tariffs against countries supporting Greenland are necessary due to this emergency...the threat of the US going to war with Greenland.

We need tariffs or we'll go to war...

You really cant make this she#t up!

 

[BuzzH]

Big day at the SCUS tomorrow. They agreed to hear a case that may decide if the president has authority to

1) fire a federal reserve Governor, and

2) potentially may decide this tomorrow as well...whether he has the right to establish tariffs by imposing an emergency...without congress... under the emergency economic powers act.

Get this...they are arguing that tariffs against countries supporting Greenland are necessary due to this emergency...the threat of the US going to war with Greenland.

We need tariffs or we'll go to war...

You really cant make this she#t up!

Well, at least the potential war will be waged for the perfectly reasonable excuse of not getting the Nobel Peace Prize.