Archery guide suggestions - MT, WY, ID, CO?

[jeffraines]

I'm starting my research now in order to hopefully get a guided hunt for next season. I've heard numerous times here and other places that getting a (good)guide can usually shortcut some of the learning process, answer a lot of questions and connect some dots a little faster than DIY. One of the things that sucks about DIY(and its how I've done all of my hunting so far) is not having anyone to get feedback from. Its hard when you come from a place of knowing nothing to answer the question "what went wrong?".

While I'm not "old" by any stretch, I'm not getting any younger either. If I could get 4 years of learning out of the way for under $10k it seems like a no-brainer. I know there's a number of online courses offered for far cheaper, but just like anything else I've found reading how to do something and actually doing the thing is often far different, and what works "theoretically" is often different from real life.

It seems Montana is a go-to due to the outfitter only tags. I don't know what the other states offer as far as that goes so that's why MT is at the top of my list.

I considered a private land style hunt for a short bit, and while the higher harvest odds sure sound nice, it doesn't seem like many things will translate to public land hunting if I want to do DIY later on. Last time I checked, hunting unpressured elk on public isn't a thing.

With all this said, do you guys have any suggestions for guides? Areas? States? I'd like to keep it under $10k. Less is obviously better, with the caveat that I don't want to go so cheap that the quality of the guides suffer. I'd like to come away with the confidence and ability to DIY in the future. Theres no sense in spending $5k on a subpar guide that's not gonna want to leave camp everyday when I can spend a couple more and get someone who's going to be dedicated to filling the tag and answering any questions knowledgeably.

Thank you!

 

[Ben Nicholson]

Dark Timber in CO. Public land, over the counter, if you can learn to be successful there you can do it anywhere. Adam is excellent. https://darktimberlodge.com/

 

[Tlrussell]

I'm starting my research now in order to hopefully get a guided hunt for next season. I've heard numerous times here and other places that getting a (good)guide can usually shortcut some of the learning process, answer a lot of questions and connect some dots a little faster than DIY. One of the things that sucks about DIY(and its how I've done all of my hunting so far) is not having anyone to get feedback from. Its hard when you come from a place of knowing nothing to answer the question "what went wrong?".

While I'm not "old" by any stretch, I'm not getting any younger either. If I could get 4 years of learning out of the way for under $10k it seems like a no-brainer. I know there's a number of online courses offered for far cheaper, but just like anything else I've found reading how to do something and actually doing the thing is often far different, and what works "theoretically" is often different from real life.

It seems Montana is a go-to due to the outfitter only tags. I don't know what the other states offer as far as that goes so that's why MT is at the top of my list.

I considered a private land style hunt for a short bit, and while the higher harvest odds sure sound nice, it doesn't seem like many things will translate to public land hunting if I want to do DIY later on. Last time I checked, hunting unpressured elk on public isn't a thing.

With all this said, do you guys have any suggestions for guides? Areas? States? I'd like to keep it under $10k. Less is obviously better, with the caveat that I don't want to go so cheap that the quality of the guides suffer. I'd like to come away with the confidence and ability to DIY in the future. Theres no sense in spending $5k on a subpar guide that's not gonna want to leave camp everyday when I can spend a couple more and get someone who's going to be dedicated to filling the tag and answering any questions knowledgeably.

Thank you!

what part of the country are you from?

 

[2rocky]

In Terms of Fa$t Pa$$ opportunities, aka "pay to play".
Idaho has Outfitter allotment tags also. And Utah has the CWMU system. Expect to pay more in Utah but I think trophy quality would be a touch better than other states. No experience in MT.

If i was going to compare and contrast the two states, Idaho, as a rule (in general) will be steeper, with more wilderness opportunities and austere surroundings. While Utah might have more private land opportunities and be better for older hunters and more vehicle based hunting opportunities.

NM has Landowner tags that sometimes are sold through outfitters, as well as an outfitter draw. You can book an outfitter for the 2 day minimum and then hunt out of a drop camp. that's the half and half option.

If you want to learn to hunt the West there is no substitute for the simple act of wearing tread off of a pair of leather boots for as many days as possible in the 11 western states. But spending time around folks who do it professionally can certainly steepen your learning curve. I will caution you though, there are hunting guides, and there are "guys who like to ride horses in the mountains and get paid for it" . If you have a guide who is also an avid hunter, it's like hunting with a buddy. If you got the other kind, well he will get you back to camp at the end of the day, it's up to you to glass and hike and be out there until dark.

If you are in a camp with other hunters and can tag along on other folks hunts as they fill their tags, it is amazing how you can compare/contrast with your experience.

And never forget, if an outfitter can tag you out in the fewest days possible, that just helps his bottom line. It is after all, a business for him/her.

 

[jeffraines]

what part of the country are you from?

Washington state.

If you want to learn to hunt the West there is no substitute for the simple act of wearing tread off of a pair of leather boots for as many days as possible in the 11 western states. But spending time around folks who do it professionally can certainly steepen your learning curve. I will caution you though, there are hunting guides, and there are "guys who like to ride horses in the mountains and get paid for it" . If you have a guide who is also an avid hunter, it's like hunting with a buddy. If you got the other kind, well he will get you back to camp at the end of the day, it's up to you to glass and hike and be out there until dark.

If you are in a camp with other hunters and can tag along on other folks hunts as they fill their tags, it is amazing how you can compare/contrast with your experience.

Thats one of the reasons I'm hoping for some kind of referral. I've heard enough horror stories about the latter... spending 6-8k to be paired with a guide who never wants to leave camp and doesn't want to chase animals(aka you know, actual hunting) sounds like a waste of money unless its some kind of high fence thing which isn't what I want nor is it the way I want to do this. I'd be perfectly happy with a barely legal raghorn and a good taste of actually hunting these things vs. "here, go sit in this blind and shoot the big one when he comes up" or worse - "here I'm gonna drop you off here and radio me when youre done"... "its getting kinda late, I like to eat around 5pm lets head back for the evening"... "sorry I overslept we should be where we need to be by 9am"

 

[perma]

Washington state.


Thats one of the reasons I'm hoping for some kind of referral. I've heard enough horror stories about the latter... spending 6-8k to be paired with a guide who never wants to leave camp and doesn't want to chase animals(aka you know, actual hunting) sounds like a waste of money unless its some kind of high fence thing which isn't what I want nor is it the way I want to do this. I'd be perfectly happy with a barely legal raghorn and a good taste of actually hunting these things vs. "here, go sit in this blind and shoot the big one when he comes up" or worse - "here I'm gonna drop you off here and radio me when youre done"... "its getting kinda late, I like to eat around 5pm lets head back for the evening"... "sorry I overslept we should be where we need to be by 9am"

I think you would better benefit finding a good hunting mentor/partner rather than a guide. The guides most often try to find the east way to kill the animal for the basis of their client. There are some in SWCO that will get gritty with you but I seem the think they are anomalies. If you want to walk out with someone at dark, you just need to find a partner that’s as dedicated as you, and not motivated by money.

I say this because I had the same exact thoughts last year when I didn’t get an elk. I thought of going to a guide but I wanted to “earn” it. I didn’t want to sit in a blind or have someone else find it for me. That’s kind of what guides do. I would definitely consider paying trespass fees if anything.

 

[2rocky]

Washington state.


Thats one of the reasons I'm hoping for some kind of referral. I've heard enough horror stories about the latter... spending 6-8k to be paired with a guide who never wants to leave camp and doesn't want to chase animals(aka you know, actual hunting) sounds like a waste of money unless its some kind of high fence thing which isn't what I want nor is it the way I want to do this. I'd be perfectly happy with a barely legal raghorn and a good taste of actually hunting these things vs. "here, go sit in this blind and shoot the big one when he comes up" or worse - "here I'm gonna drop you off here and radio me when youre done"... "its getting kinda late, I like to eat around 5pm lets head back for the evening"... "sorry I overslept we should be where we need to be by 9am"

That's why you avoid the outfitters in WY who email you after the Draw to hunt that year.

Call the references and ask how hard they hunted.

 

[GrantK]

I think you would better benefit finding a good hunting mentor/partner rather than a guide. The guides most often try to find the east way to kill the animal for the basis of their client. There are some in SWCO that will get gritty with you but I seem the think they are anomalies. If you want to walk out with someone at dark, you just need to find a partner that’s as dedicated as you, and not motivated by money.

I say this because I had the same exact thoughts last year when I didn’t get an elk. I thought of going to a guide but I wanted to “earn” it. I didn’t want to sit in a blind or have someone else find it for me. That’s kind of what guides do. I would definitely consider paying trespass fees if anything.

This pretty much nails it.
I guided for years and it's relatively easy to teach the stuff that is just mechanics, i.e. taking care of game, calling, glassing, but it's also easy to learn those things online, the things that can't easily be taught are the things based on lots of time in the woods, where to go based on knowledge of an area and feelings about the conditions, how to be comfortable in the woods by yourself, the sounds and feeling of each place are unique and the patterns of why elk do certain things vary, even with a client who can ask the right questions it's often hard to explain exactly what the prompt for a certain action was, also, it's usually a combination of many partial inputs that shapes the decision process, if you start by letting the guide make all the decisions you definitely have a significantly better chance of success, but I wouldn't go into it expecting to learn a ton, if that is the goal I would go on as many DIY hunts as you can, for the same amount money as your one outfitted hunt you could be 3-4 hunts in and you would likely have a much better understanding of the game...

 

[The Hedgehog]

I've heard numerous times here and other places that getting a (good)guide can usually shortcut some of the learning process, answer a lot of questions and connect some dots a little faster than DIY.

If you want to kill an elk, get out your wallet, get a guide. If you want to to learn about hunting elk, you just need to actually go and do it a bit.

 

[Tlrussell]

Washington state.


Thats one of the reasons I'm hoping for some kind of referral. I've heard enough horror stories about the latter... spending 6-8k to be paired with a guide who never wants to leave camp and doesn't want to chase animals(aka you know, actual hunting) sounds like a waste of money unless its some kind of high fence thing which isn't what I want nor is it the way I want to do this. I'd be perfectly happy with a barely legal raghorn and a good taste of actually hunting these things vs. "here, go sit in this blind and shoot the big one when he comes up" or worse - "here I'm gonna drop you off here and radio me when youre done"... "its getting kinda late, I like to eat around 5pm lets head back for the evening"... "sorry I overslept we should be where we need to be by 9am"

Washington state.


Thats one of the reasons I'm hoping for some kind of referral. I've heard enough horror stories about the latter... spending 6-8k to be paired with a guide who never wants to leave camp and doesn't want to chase animals(aka you know, actual hunting) sounds like a waste of money unless its some kind of high fence thing which isn't what I want nor is it the way I want to do this. I'd be perfectly happy with a barely legal raghorn and a good taste of actually hunting these things vs. "here, go sit in this blind and shoot the big one when he comes up" or worse - "here I'm gonna drop you off here and radio me when youre done"... "its getting kinda late, I like to eat around 5pm lets head back for the evening"... "sorry I overslept we should be where we need to be by 9am"

Washington state.


Thats one of the reasons I'm hoping for some kind of referral. I've heard enough horror stories about the latter... spending 6-8k to be paired with a guide who never wants to leave camp and doesn't want to chase animals(aka you know, actual hunting) sounds like a waste of money unless its some kind of high fence thing which isn't what I want nor is it the way I want to do this. I'd be perfectly happy with a barely legal raghorn and a good taste of actually hunting these things vs. "here, go sit in this blind and shoot the big one when he comes up" or worse - "here I'm gonna drop you off here and radio me when youre done"... "its getting kinda late, I like to eat around 5pm lets head back for the evening"... "sorry I overslept we should be where we need to be by 9am"

These guys are right. Killing isn’t hunting. I had a rude awakening. I killed my first bull with a bow the first time I went out. Sep 09. The following year, I killed Nov 24. Sometimes things just line up. I have probably 450 days in the woods elk hunting. Public land. I kill a mature bull every year. My measure is no incidental kills. I find a bull, and I go until I kill him or not. It’s a good feeling when you get the confidence. It takes a lot of time and attempts. I have a great mentor also. It took four years of him saying the same things to me that I have listed below.

Elk hunting is like therapy. It’s not when you are on the couch that the work occurs. So here is my list. I share it with my buddies. They don’t take it seriously. I hunt solo quite a bit because it’s hard to find someone who is willing to make the commitment.

1. Fitness ( I hike my way in to shape)
2. Settle on an area no more than 800acres. Learn it well.
3. Don’t get hung up on calling. If you are in the right spot, you will see/hear them.
4. It’s good to sleep with them. I’m married and have two kids. I go out in the evening, locate, get close and bivy. Now you are ready to charge in the am. I usually get no more than an evening/morning/evening.
5. DCS- Decisive, make a decision and go with it. Commit- commit to what you are doing. Speed- damnit you gotta move.

I’d be happy to riff w you if you want. PM me and I’ll give you my number.

I had a buddy who did none of the above. He hunted elk for 5 years. He killed one last year. The bull he killed was representative of the effort he put forth. He was disappointed in the bull, I was disappointed he wasted five years and never really learned anything. Tyler

 

[jeffraines]

Trust me, I've considered going DIY.

I'm just at the point where I'd rather pay to fast track any practical knowledge I can gain vs. trying to grind it out. If I spend 3 years doing DIY I'm almost at the cost of an outfitter - if I spend 3 years and have fewer than three encounters to show for it, I'd likely be further ahead just paying up. Add in that PTO is at a premium as I have 2 younger kids, a wife, a house, and a full time job. I'd love nothing more than to take an entire elk season off to figure it out, but that's not in the cards for another 12 years at least... and most of the better elk hunting is 8+ hours away so that kinda forgoes me getting away every weekend. Even if I opted to grind it out here, our archery season is only 2 weeks. Muzzy is 6 days. Modern is 7 days I think... and by all accounts(including a friend who's hunted public here and now has a private land hookup - and who I trust) the elk hunting here isn't great by any stretch.

One more thing considering the guide aspect - I might be able to work out a deal if I fill my tag early I can hang around for the remainder of my time potentially going and helping other hunters. Going with the more encounters = faster learning, it may pay off even more to do it this way. I would think being able to experience two or three elk hitting the ground would be beneficial. I don't know how realistic that scenario would be, but its another potential benefit.

As far as partners, I've tried. I'm either stuck with guys who think going 20 miles in is the answer, or complete casuals who flake out the day before/day of plans. Neither of which want to spend out of state money on hunting, nor the time. Also, when I say 20 miles I mean that in the most literal sense. Not a "I'm too lazy to leave my rig and they want to walk/hike in"... no, I mean they think going 20-30 miles in is the answer, and it isn't just elk hunting its all hunting. Want to hunt bear? 20 miles. Want to see some deer? 20 miles. Surely there's animals behind every tree the further in you go... I know damn well that's not the case.

I also completely understand established guys having reservations about bringing new people in to their hunts/areas. Its for these reasons that I'm fine with just doing it on my own whatever way I can. If it costs $6-8k, whatever. It's not something I plan on doing every season.

 

[Commutair]

Jeff, you are 100% correct. Spend the money. Elk hunting is not what it was. It’s a madhouse. I’d rather spend 6k getting horsed in with an outfitter, than calling in 4 guys from china. (Literally happened to my buddy). Things have changed, so must we. If you have the money spend it. It’s your time… nobody else’s..

 

[The Hedgehog]

Trust me, I've considered going DIY.

I'm just at the point where I'd rather pay to fast track any practical knowledge I can gain vs. trying to grind it out. If I spend 3 years doing DIY I'm almost at the cost of an outfitter - if I spend 3 years and have fewer than three encounters to show for it, I'd likely be further ahead just paying up. Add in that PTO is at a premium as I have 2 younger kids, a wife, a house, and a full time job. I'd love nothing more than to take an entire elk season off to figure it out, but that's not in the cards for another 12 years at least... and most of the better elk hunting is 8+ hours away so that kinda forgoes me getting away every weekend. Even if I opted to grind it out here, our archery season is only 2 weeks. Muzzy is 6 days. Modern is 7 days I think... and by all accounts(including a friend who's hunted public here and now has a private land hookup - and who I trust) the elk hunting here isn't great by any stretch.

One more thing considering the guide aspect - I might be able to work out a deal if I fill my tag early I can hang around for the remainder of my time potentially going and helping other hunters. Going with the more encounters = faster learning, it may pay off even more to do it this way. I would think being able to experience two or three elk hitting the ground would be beneficial. I don't know how realistic that scenario would be, but its another potential benefit.

As far as partners, I've tried. I'm either stuck with guys who think going 20 miles in is the answer, or complete casuals who flake out the day before/day of plans. Neither of which want to spend out of state money on hunting, nor the time. Also, when I say 20 miles I mean that in the most literal sense. Not a "I'm too lazy to leave my rig and they want to walk/hike in"... no, I mean they think going 20-30 miles in is the answer, and it isn't just elk hunting its all hunting. Want to hunt bear? 20 miles. Want to see some deer? 20 miles. Surely there's animals behind every tree the further in you go... I know damn well that's not the case.

I also completely understand established guys having reservations about bringing new people in to their hunts/areas. Its for these reasons that I'm fine with just doing it on my own whatever way I can. If it costs $6-8k, whatever. It's not something I plan on doing every season.

Yes you should go guided.