Another Dog Question

[Coop]

After getting our lab pup (just over a year old) out into the field a couple times, I have run into an issue. She has a great nose and will find a downed bird, but she has been refusing to pick birds up. I trained her with wings and dummies, which she is always crazy about, and she has picked up dead birds in the past with a lot of praise and excitement from yours truly. But now she refuses to pick up a bird in her mouth and bring it back to me. She prefers to try to pick feathers off the bird while she waits for me to arrive. This is absolutely a no-no, but I also don't want to get angry with her when she is around a dead bird. Thoughts on how to get the knucklehead to do what she's bred to do and retrieve the bird? I would rather not force fetch but open to suggestions since I'm pretty green with dog training.

 

[Wild Bill]

If you don't want to force fetch her, do some research and have someone else do it.

 

[El Jason]

If you don't want to force fetch her, do some research and have someone else do it.

This. She’s doing shit for herself and not you. Get it fixed or you’ll have a train wreck.

 

[nastynate]

The two posts above are likely the correct answer.

I did not force fetch my dog, I only hunt upland, and I don't think I'm losing any birds because of his lack of force fetching. He's my first, I'm by no means an experienced trainer, so take this with a grain of salt.

He had a similar problem- if the bird was wounded, he'd run it down and pick it for me (he still has soft mouth). If the bird was dead, he'd look at it and sniff it and wag... but not retrieve. I substantially helped this out by getting a couple dead pheasants, having him on a check cord, and either retrieving or playing "dead bird" (hiding the bird in my yard and having him search it out). Basically replacing a dummy with an actual dead bird. I never let him chew (just like I wouldn't let him chew a dummy), but after a bit of big time excited play with a dead bird, he readily snatched them up dead ones in the field the next time. Treat a dead pheasant (or whatever bird you're chasing) like a training dummy for a while, and next time she encounters a dead one in the field she's probably more likely to pick it up, at least in my experience (with my one dog).

 

[El Jason]

Regardless of what you do, ponder this. You drop a pheasant and and your dog takes off after it, out of sight and possibly out of earshot. Would you rather

A) wonder if your dog has found the bird and is now looking at it, eating it, or burying it or
B) know your dog is a reliable retriever under all circumstances and he’ll be back with the bird when he finds it

 

[Coop]

Force fetch it is then. She's a hard-headed dog, so in the long run this may be best for everyone involved. Appreciate the input from you all!

 

[Wild Bill]

Force fetch it is then. She's a hard-headed dog, so in the long run this may be best for everyone involved. Appreciate the input from you all!

Rather hard-headed than timid. You can always take a little out of them, but it's hard to put any more into them.

 

[El Jason]

Force fetch it is then. She's a hard-headed dog, so in the long run this may be best for everyone involved. Appreciate the input from you all!

Smart fetch by Evan Graham is a fantastic book. If you do it yourself, make sure you pick one system and stick with it from start to finish. Don’t shortcut any of it, and don’t intermix different processes.

 

[Coop]

Smart fetch by Evan Graham is a fantastic book. If you do it yourself, make sure you pick one system and stick with it from start to finish. Don’t shortcut any of it, and don’t intermix different processes.

Appreciate that advice. I will be doing it myself, so the research starts now. Like I said, I am pretty green with this, but I'm sure it'll be well worth it.

 

[El Jason]

Appreciate that advice. I will be doing it myself, so the research starts now. Like I said, I am pretty green with this, but I'm sure it'll be well worth it.

Hit me up if you have any questions, or run into any problems. It’s in intimidating process at first, but the results are well worth it.

 

[Coop]

Hit me up if you have any questions, or run into any problems. It’s in intimidating process at first, but the results are well worth it.

Much appreciated! I will definitely be in touch if we start running into problems.

 

[BucksnDucks]

Coop, my initial question here is when and how are you praising her?
I've seen guys try to encourage their labs half way through a retrieve, Good Boy, Good Boy. May be unique to individual dogs but praise before completely the job is confusing to a dog. These dogs then don't retrieve to hand thinking their task is done, why else would they be complimented and praised.
She may think her job is done by just finding a downed bird.
If that's not the case follow the above solid advice. Start fresh with clear goals and don't progress until each phase is solid.
I've been through a few dogs and we as trainers are generally the "knuckleheads".

 

[AlaskaHunter]

Force fetch takes considerable persistence, patience, and praise.
Praise to inform pup the instant he is behaving correctly. I am not fighting pup, I'm teaching pup.

Patience because it is a gradual process.
Persistence because for some pups it takes many sessions before they "get it".

I like to force-fetch pup in the dead of winter when there is not much exciting going on in pup's life.
Typically I take 60 session, twice a day before feeding.
Phase 1 is hold. I start with a gloved hand because pup can not spit it out.
Early sessions may be each hold for 1-2 second, then drop. Rinse and repeat.
Gradually lengthening the duration depending on pups performance.
Once pup is good with a gloved hand, I switch to a bumper and duration starts at hold for 1-2 seconds.
Gradually lengthening the duration depending on pups performance.
Then transition to frozen birds.

During the hold phase of training, there should be no chomping, no rolling of the hold object.
And pup learns to drop on command.
A proof of a reliable hold is will pup walk at heel and hold at the same time.
Typically they hold reliably when stationary but may drop as soon as movement starts.

Only after hold is reliable, with no chomping, no rolling of the hold object, and drop on command
do I progress to the ear-pinch phase of force-fetch.
Once again persistence, patience, and praise.
I start with the bumper about an inch from pups mouth.
Timing is important, pup should feel no more ear pinch the instant he grabs that bumper. Praise at that instant.

In this phase the distance from pups mouth to the bumper is gradually increased with this depending on pups performance.
A big hurdle is typically with the transition from grabbing a hand-held bumper to grabbing a bumper on the ground.
Once again timing is important, no more ear pinch the instant he grabs that bumper.
I've force-fetched labs since the 1980s and each has been different in terms of there progression.
Persistence, patience, and praise.
And don't confuse confusion with disobedience! Teach, don't fight pup.

 

[Coop]

Coop, my initial question here is when and how are you praising her?
I've seen guys try to encourage their labs half way through a retrieve, Good Boy, Good Boy. May be unique to individual dogs but praise before completely the job is confusing to a dog. These dogs then don't retrieve to hand thinking their task is done, why else would they be complimented and praised.
She may think her job is done by just finding a downed bird.
If that's not the case follow the above solid advice. Start fresh with clear goals and don't progress until each phase is solid.
I've been through a few dogs and we as trainers are generally the "knuckleheads".

I'll be the first to admit that I am a knucklehead with this. Complete novice but hey, I enjoy the learning process and watching my pup learn with me. You bring up a good point that I have not realized. I likely praise too often and too early so that is an adjustment to make for sure. Thanks for the great advice!

 

[Coop]

And don't confuse confusion with disobedience! Teach, don't fight pup.

This all seems rock solid. I am going to take the advice of @JLS and find one program to stick with, but it will look something like that. Not sure if I will use and ear pinch or her collar for negative reinforcement, but I'll be doing the research to figure that one out. As of right now, it seems like the ear pinch might at least be better for obedience/"breaking" her hard headedness.

 

[El Jason]

FWIW, I start with pinching the ear into the buckle of the collar, then transition to the e-collar when it’s time to move out into the field.

 

[BrentD]

After getting our lab pup (just over a year old) out into the field a couple times, I have run into an issue. She has a great nose and will find a downed bird, but she has been refusing to pick birds up. I trained her with wings and dummies, which she is always crazy about, and she has picked up dead birds in the past with a lot of praise and excitement from yours truly. But now she refuses to pick up a bird in her mouth and bring it back to me. She prefers to try to pick feathers off the bird while she waits for me to arrive. This is absolutely a no-no, but I also don't want to get angry with her when she is around a dead bird. Thoughts on how to get the knucklehead to do what she's bred to do and retrieve the bird? I would rather not force fetch but open to suggestions since I'm pretty green with dog training.

This is an alternative.

I sometimes call a dog a nose on four legs. Retrieving is much overrated, though damn handy in a duck blind in particular. Anyway, I feel the most important thing for a dog to do is to find every bird twice. Once to put it up for you to knock down and once more for you to collect it and put it in your pocket. Sometimes that second find entails 100 yds of running and tackling, but if it's DOI (Dead on Impact) finding is sufficient.

Gus and I will win no awards, but we put meat on the table.

 

[AlaskaHunter]

This all seems rock solid. I am going to take the advice of @JLS and find one program to stick with, but it will look something like that. Not sure if I will use and ear pinch or her collar for negative reinforcement, but I'll be doing the research to figure that one out. As of right now, it seems like the ear pinch might at least be better for obedience/"breaking" her hard headedness.

I like Evan Grahams Smartfetch Program.
Note the trainer is calm and teaching, not fighting the dog:

 

[Salmonchaser]

Through all of this Coop understand the techniques have been around for a long time, it can be intimidating and frankly a little heartbreaking in the beginning. The results will build great bonds with you and pup. Stick with it.