And there go the prairie potholes....

[SAJ-99]

Modern agriculture is apocalyptic for most wildlife

And the tax payers pay for it. Farmers have tapped out the natural stores of inputs that the prairies and wetlands built up over thousands of years. We can’t convince most of them that there are more efficient and cheaper ways to farm than to apply man made fertilizer on the ground a couple of times each year only to watch it wash away because of the tiles. The answer is to double-down on the tiles. I guess the tax payer will be there to bail them out during a drought.

 

[R.K.]

And the tax payers pay for it. Farmers have tapped out the natural stores of inputs that the prairies and wetlands built up over thousands of years. We can’t convince most of them that there are more efficient and cheaper ways to farm than to apply man made fertilizer on the ground a couple of times each year only to watch it wash away because of the tiles. The answer is to double-down on the tiles. I guess the tax payer will be there to bail them out during a drought.

Nope, no bailout coming this time. Which the end result will be corporate or foreign capital buyout. I won’t get into the who, or the why, but that’s going to be the result with this round of farm bankruptcies.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Eagle Lake, TX? I can't tell because you don't put a location on your user ID.
If you are going to try to argue that farmers are beneficial to waterfowl, you are going to have a tough go of it without sounding foolish. Try to stick to arguing that this rule change was necessary in any way.

While I tend to agree that Big Ag seriously hurts wildlife, this is another twist to consider.

Why did the snow goose population explode? - Birdful

The population of snow geese has exploded in recent decades. In the early 1900s, overhunting had decimated snow goose numbers, with only a few thousand

www.birdful.org

 

[Mustangs Rule]

It mostly comes back to how much stubble, residue, and water is left during the migration. The entire state of IL seems to get a fall chisel plow these days, the AR delta mows down the rice stubble and drains the fields (unless leased out for hunting), and most of it gets pesticide applications so the invertebrates the ducks eat during warmer weather are severely diminished.

The one crop that seems to get left for stubble is wheat in the prairie pothole region (helps catch snow and retain moisture), but that isn't where wintering ducks are, and the pintails nest in it the following spring only to get their nests plowed under during planting season.

Modern monoculture* agriculture is apocalyptic for most wildlife.

please look at post #63

 

[SAJ-99]

While I tend to agree that Big Ag seriously hurts wildlife, this is another twist to consider.

Why did the snow goose population explode? - Birdful

The population of snow geese has exploded in recent decades. In the early 1900s, overhunting had decimated snow goose numbers, with only a few thousand

www.birdful.org

It helps that they haven’t figured out how to grow corn in the arctic, yet.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

Saw a DU action alert and petition against this. Signed it. Also seen a few waterfowl hunting “influencers” speaking out against it. Maybe that will move the needle.

 

[Lmartin5]

Saw a DU action alert and petition against this. Signed it. Also seen a few waterfowl hunting “influencers” speaking out against it. Maybe that will move the needle.

This is concerning!

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

With all the resistance to this there is a good chance it will be tabled (thank God) and those who introduced the idea will then hope it is forgotten. But people need to remember who introduced this idea and let it sink in. And it wasn't anyone in the "fish and wildlife service" I can guarantee you. In fact, it sickens me that is how it is being presented by so many that are okay with blaming the agency, but avoid blaming the administration who directs it at all costs.

 

[twraska]

Eagle Lake, TX? I can't tell because you don't put a location on your user ID.
If you are going to try to argue that farmers are beneficial to waterfowl, you are going to have a tough go of it without sounding foolish. Try to stick to arguing that this rule change was necessary in any way.

Well, believe what you want, but decline in rice acres coincides with decline in birds here. How often do you see geese landing in native tall grass prairie when there is a rice, corn or milo field with leftover grain from the combine? If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you.
And I’ll add, DU has spent big bucks in the area. Habit is supposed to be better than before. That didn’t work out.

 

[twraska]

To expand on that, the pipe is typically discharged into drainage ditches or streams. It essentially takes water that should be creating wetlands or recharging the aquifers and sends it directly into our waterways, often loaded with additional nutrients.

You need to study soil science before you go and make statements that are incorrect. The tile doesn’t run water until the soil profile is saturated anbove the level of the tile and even then it only lowers the water level in the very top of the soil.

 

[NoWiser]

You need to study soil science before you go and make statements that are incorrect. The tile doesn’t run water until the soil profile is saturated anbove the level of the tile and even then it only lowers the water level in the very top of the soil.

I’m not sure what part of what I said was incorrect . What else would the water be doing that’s drained through the tile? I suppose a very small percentage might run off the surface. Some might evaporate. But, the vast majority that’s now piped directly to our waterways would either be soaking into the ground or filling up wetlands. No degree in soil science needed.

We are in a drought here. The neighbors’ tile lines that discharge onto our property are all flowing. Every one of them. I personally checked them last week. We hadn’t had rain in weeks. We did finally get 2.5” on Friday. I guarantee the water is literally shooting out of them right now if I went and checked.

 

[Bonasababy]

Well, believe what you want, but decline in rice acres coincides with decline in birds here. How often do you see geese landing in native tall grass prairie when there is a rice, corn or milo field with leftover grain from the combine? If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you.
And I’ll add, DU has spent big bucks in the area. Habit is supposed to be better than before. That didn’t work out.

I believe you are making the mistake that many do...looking at only one season or habitat use/need.

 

[twraska]

I believe you are making the mistake that many do...looking at only one season or habitat use/need.

This decline was over a decade.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You need to study soil science before you go and make statements that are incorrect. The tile doesn’t run water until the soil profile is saturated anbove the level of the tile and even then it only lowers the water level in the very top of the soil.

If the tile is buried 18" - your saying the water wont drain far into the soil or "in the very top soil" to quote?

Thats not compatible with my understanding of hydology/hydraulics.

 

[twraska]

I’m not sure what part of what I said was incorrect . What else would the water be doing that’s drained through the tile? I suppose a very small percentage might run off the surface. Some might evaporate. But, the vast majority that’s now piped directly to our waterways would either be soaking into the ground or filling up wetlands. No degree in soil science needed.

We are in a drought here. The neighbors’ tile lines that discharge onto our property are all flowing. Every one of them. I personally checked them last week. We hadn’t had rain in weeks. We did finally get 2.5” on Friday. I guarantee the water is literally shooting out of them right now if I went and checked.

I don’t have the time to explain all the dynamics of water movement in soil. But basically think of it as having a drain in the side of a barrel. You start putting water in the barrel, water won’t run out until it gets to the hole in the side. You might get a splash out before that by at ripples from filling but nothing to speak of. Same with soil, bottom must be saturated before tile runs.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I don’t have the time to explain all the dynamics of water movement in soil. But basically think of it as having a drain in the side of a barrel. You start putting water in the barrel, water won’t run out until it gets to the hole in the side. You might get a splash out before that by at ripples from filling but nothing to speak of. Same with soil, bottom must be saturated before tile runs.

Im not folllowing. The tile drains the soil above it - not below.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

Well, believe what you want, but decline in rice acres coincides with decline in birds here. How often do you see geese landing in native tall grass prairie when there is a rice, corn or milo field with leftover grain from the combine? If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you.
And I’ll add, DU has spent big bucks in the area. Habit is supposed to be better than before. That didn’t work out.

Like most folks from your area, you are grossly oversimplifying a fairly complex change of events. I say "from your area" because I spent more than 20 years there, working in the conservation field and managing rice fields, prairie and coastal wetlands. And by "there" I mean Eagle Lake, TX specifically. I know that town. Drove through it 2x/day for nearly 15 years. Knew the last two mayors personally. I ate 100's of hippos from the mini-Bucees', dropped off ducks at the pickers and I still tell folks that Austin's BBQ is the best in the state (because it is!).

Please take a minute and listen to what folks here are trying to tell you. Take the standard "I'm from Texas so I know everything" blinders off and actually listen with the intent to learn, not just the intent to respond. The decline in rice acres has nothing to do with the change in patterns of waterfowl. It has a lot to do with the rice market, especially those in other states and countries. It has even more to do with climate change. Think about how many other species' ranges are creeping northward. In the 90's you couldn't find a white-winged dove north of San Antonio and rarely north of Corpus. Now they have them in OKC. In the 90's armadillos were never seen north of OK, now they are in Illinois. In the 90's people in New England had only read about turkey vultures in books. Now they are in Canada. There is rarely one cause even if our simple human brains always want to think so.

 

[NoWiser]

I don’t have the time to explain all the dynamics of water movement in soil. But basically think of it as having a drain in the side of a barrel. You start putting water in the barrel, water won’t run out until it gets to the hole in the side. You might get a splash out before that by at ripples from filling but nothing to speak of. Same with soil, bottom must be saturated before tile runs.

I understand more than you probably imagine. The fact remains that water that runs out of those tiles is water that otherwise would be recharging aquifers or filling wetlands. This is the case, even if it only happens when the water table is higher in the spring.

My beef isn’t only with grid tiles, though. I’m an equal opportunity tile-hater. Every single depression in every single field around me has an orange tile intake sticking up in the middle of it. Nearly all of these were once wetlands. No matter the soil saturation level, every one of these expedites nutrient laden water straight to a waterway when there’s a moderate or heavy rain. The results are more frequent flooding and nasty algae blooms.

I drive by a wetland everyday on my way to work. A pheasant and duck paradise. I ran across the landowner about a year ago and mentioned how cool it was. He went on a tirade about it being protected by an easement so it can’t be drained, resulting in a big, worthless, “wasteland.” Maybe this new rule will make him happy. Throw in a few new tiles and, if he’s lucky, all the water will disappear so he can hay it. No ducks, but at least it’ll no longer be “worthless.”

 

[twraska]

Like most folks from your area, you are grossly oversimplifying a fairly complex change of events. I say "from your area" because I spent more than 20 years there, working in the conservation field and managing rice fields, prairie and coastal wetlands. And by "there" I mean Eagle Lake, TX specifically. I know that town. Drove through it 2x/day for nearly 15 years. Knew the last two mayors personally. I ate 100's of hippos from the mini-Bucees', dropped off ducks at the pickers and I still tell folks that Austin's BBQ is the best in the state (because it is!).

Please take a minute and listen to what folks here are trying to tell you. Take the standard "I'm from Texas so I know everything" blinders off and actually listen with the intent to learn, not just the intent to respond. The decline in rice acres has nothing to do with the change in patterns of waterfowl. It has a lot to do with the rice market, especially those in other states and countries. It has even more to do with climate change. Think about how many other species' ranges are creeping northward. In the 90's you couldn't find a white-winged dove north of San Antonio and rarely north of Corpus. Now they have them in OKC. In the 90's armadillos were never seen north of OK, now they are in Illinois. In the 90's people in New England had only read about turkey vultures in books. Now they are in Canada. There is rarely one cause even if our simple human brains always want to think so.

I’ve lived in the area for 66 years. Maybe you need to take a look at the bigger picture.
Now for you saying that other factors are in play, I don’t deny that, but this whole discussion has been how bad crop farming is for waterfowl, and that is not the case. Crop farm helps feed the birds.

 

[Justabirdwatcher]

I’ve lived in the area for 66 years. Maybe you need to take a look at the bigger picture.
Now for you saying that other factors are in play, I don’t deny that, but this whole discussion has been how bad crop farming is for waterfowl, and that is not the case. Crop farm helps feed the birds.

That's actually not even what this thread is about. And it's not surprising that you've lived in the EL area for 66 years based on your baises.

Look, let's think back 200 years ago. Exactly what do you think was supporting the flocks of waterfowl that were known to "darken the sky" in those days? Foreign rice? Even Eagle Lake was first planted in sugar cane. The rice didn't come until your lifetime. Stretch that noggin just a bit. Set the Colorado County wisdom aside for just a second and listen to the folks here. Many of them actually understand prairie potholes and tiling.