Am i the only out of state hunter that thinks this is wrong?

[BuzzH]

Hey Paul,

Check into how the state manages their lands now, report back.

Montana doesnt have enough money to manage the lands they have now, they'd be screwed if they were given control of all federal lands to boot. With a whopping 700,000ish population...where would the tax dollars come from...cheap skates like you who jump through every loophole to avoid paying taxes?

Either way the feds would have to pay for management, or the other option would be for the state to immediately sell at least half the newly acquired federal lands to have the $$$ to manage whats left. Those are the options, and in my opinion, are NOT options.

I'll have to agree with Gunner, that is about the most idiotic and ridiculous thing I've seen you type...

You've officially removed all doubt in my mind that rational thought escapes you...

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

Do I sense a bit of insecurity in the future of your employment?

 

[BuzzH]

Paul,

Luckily most U.S. citizens dont think peddling federal land to the states is a good idea, neither do those in charge.

So, I guess the answer is no.

Oh, and I guess you better think about holding a bake sale to raise money for the management of the now Federal lands that you think will become State lands...maybe you could talk elkcheese into baking an oatmeal pie.

Between the proceeds of the bake sale, the taxes that 700,000 people pay, and all those $16 elk tags...management should ROCK!

 

[schmalts]

Bighorn, you are out of touch with reality. You said that FNAW did a lot for sheep. it dont bother you that Don is taking credit for it? As far as a bake sale, well thats what SFW and RMEF is doing, but i cannot afford 60,000$ brownies. I would not give RMEF one dime and after your comment about them i see you are spouting off here without reading my posts on MM because you would see that I am against RMEF as well. it all comes down to the fact that both groups are no longer appealing to the average guy who hunts. The money they raise should be coming from everyone and the hunting opportunities should reflect that.
And once again, i am not against what they are trying to do, just the way they are making the money. They fall into the trap where its easier to get 100,000$ by getting 10,000 from ten guys rather that 10$ from 10,000 guys. the end result is those 10 guys get to hunt your states animals on OUR land while the rest of us watch it on TV

 

[JoseCuervo]

the end result is those 10 guys get to hunt your states animals on OUR land while the rest of us watch it on TV

But I DID enjoy watching your DVD....

 

[BigHornRam]

Schmalts

I don't really know what point your trying to make or what your talking about? What is MM? If you don't like RMEF start up your own elk group with like minded individuals. How do you propose to give out tags when demand far out paces supply? Whats fair to you? Have you ever considered moving to one of the "greedy" states with good hunting that likes to stick it to the non resident? A sheep tag here is still a 100 to 1 for residents.

 

[ringer]

For those who are saying Arizona hunters just want to screw the non-res and are happy with the increases you can KMA. I have attended the meetings, given input and worked on habitat improvements here and I can say that 95% of the hunters attending said NOT to jack prices up too high for the average NR hunter to afford. We unanimously said to raise our resident fees to help offset the Taulman legal fees and department shortfalls. That being said I don't think much of any of the increases, landowner tags, outfitter allottments or organization politic tags are good for us as a hunting community. Now for the state's rights issue I don't think all the whining in the world will get NR hunters a real voice in the state decisions.

 

[schmalts]

Schmalts

I don't really know what point your trying to make or what your talking about? What is MM? If you don't like RMEF start up your own elk group with like minded individuals. How do you propose to give out tags when demand far out paces supply? Whats fair to you? Have you ever considered moving to one of the "greedy" states with good hunting that likes to stick it to the non resident? A sheep tag here is still a 100 to 1 for residents.

MM= Monster muleys. If you read my original post you would have seen there is a link to the forum there. Go read the whole topic and maybe you will see what i am talking about.

 

[schmalts]

For those who are saying Arizona hunters just want to screw the non-res and are happy with the increases you can KMA. I have attended the meetings, given input and worked on habitat improvements here and I can say that 95% of the hunters attending said NOT to jack prices up too high for the average NR hunter to afford. We unanimously said to raise our resident fees to help offset the Taulman legal fees and department shortfalls. That being said I don't think much of any of the increases, landowner tags, outfitter allottments or organization politic tags are good for us as a hunting community. Now for the state's rights issue I don't think all the whining in the world will get NR hunters a real voice in the state decisions.

You also must not have read the entire topic before you responded to a different subject at hand. no one here said the Residents only want to screw the NR. A little refresher guys, its about RMEF and SFW taking the nonres tags and selling to the rich, in a nutshell. And if you are one of those who thinks its OK than shame on you if you hunt, or plan on hunting out of state EVER

 

[ringer]

Refer to post #29.

 

[BigHornRam]

Schmalts,

I missed the MM link and not interested in checking it out. You never answered my question about starting up a new elk organization. You obviously don't like RMEF, but would have to admit they have done SOME GOOD for elk. Do you want everyone else to carry the water for your cause and then complain when you don't like how they are going about it? If there are others who feel like you do, it should be easy to get a new organization started. Your $10 dollars from 10000 people puzzles me. How do you do this when there is only 100 tags available. 9900 will not get a tag no matter what way it gets given out. I would rather improve the herd so next year there is 200 tags available. The odds still suck, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

Based on what I read here, you are not interested in a cow hunt, just a big rack hunt. I gather you dislike the governor tag programs as well. Well as long as hunters are soley interested in getting a big rack and nothing else, then hunting will continue to be a rich mans sport. Low supply with high demand = big dollars. Thats how it works in a capitalistic society.

Have you ever considered buying an Idaho elk tag? You can get one every year if you put in on time. And there are a few big racks out there for those who put in the time and effort.

 

[schmalts]

Schmalts,

I missed the MM link and not interested in checking it out. You never answered my question about starting up a new elk organization. You obviously don't like RMEF, but would have to admit they have done SOME GOOD for elk. Do you want everyone else to carry the water for your cause and then complain when you don't like how they are going about it? If there are others who feel like you do, it should be easy to get a new organization started. Your $10 dollars from 10000 people puzzles me. How do you do this when there is only 100 tags available. 9900 will not get a tag no matter what way it gets given out. I would rather improve the herd so next year there is 200 tags available. The odds still suck, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

Based on what I read here, you are not interested in a cow hunt, just a big rack hunt. I gather you dislike the governor tag programs as well. Well as long as hunters are soley interested in getting a big rack and nothing else, then hunting will continue to be a rich mans sport. Low supply with high demand = big dollars. Thats how it works in a capitalistic society.

Have you ever considered buying an Idaho elk tag? You can get one every year if you put in on time. And there are a few big racks out there for those who put in the time and effort.

You get it across the board from application fees. plain and simple. That way everyone who is interested in hunting elk has a fair donation to the cause.
and i wont answer any of your questions since you dont care to read the whole story.

 

[BigHornRam]

Schmalts,

10 dollars a pop would hardly cover the cost to process the applications, let alone raise money for management. What about states like AZ, NV, and ID that make you purchase a non refundable hunting license prior to applying for a draw, or for if you would like to earn bonus points? Do you oppose this as well?

 

[BigHornRam]

Schmalts,

To be fair to you I did go check your link, but I didn't learn much from it. This guy liked it, that guy didn't. Pretty hard to follow the dialoge. I did see where Utah's creative management has improved hunter opportunity and that benefits both the resident and non resident hunter.

Now that I checked out your link, could you answer my questions?

 

[schmalts]

First off 10$ would raise a lot of money from each application. The cost of the application now is $5 , add 10$ more by the number of applicant times each species and do a little math. I think your missing my whole point. What i am saying is why take a totally unproportionat amount of the nonres tags away to raffle off at a convention that only residents (and only ones close by) and nonresidents with too much money can attend? the point about having to be at the convention to apply is what pisses me off the most. He is taking 5 times the percentage of tags form the nonres pool and selling them back where very few nonresidents can be to have a chance to buy them back. What dont you understand ??
As far as your question, i dont have the answers except that all of us applying should have an easier way to apply than flying to UT to do so.
And all of us need to step up to help pay for this. Why is it every time the F&G need money the plan is "lets screw the nonres guys 10 fold for any increase in money needed" That is creating a disaster for the future of our sport mark my words on it. It was one thing when the prices were reasonable for the average guy but now its only the rich can hunt in AZ and it will get worst next year after thier retaliation from USO. AZ is already out of hand and look what has happened. UT and others is getting to be just as bad.
The more we all expect the rich to flip the bill for habitat the more the rich will only be the ones hunting. What dont you understand about this??
Dont you have kids that you want to take hunting someplace out of state some day?? Do you think that rich kids should have more rights to draw youth hunt tags as well because they can afford it? it will come to that sooner or later. |oo

 

[schmalts]

Schmalts,

To be fair to you I did go check your link, but I didn't learn much from it. This guy liked it, that guy didn't. Pretty hard to follow the dialoge.
?

The rich and the residents liked it. A few honest residents dont like it because they feel like i do. I guess its pointless to argue this with you if you dont understand, sorry. Anyone else want to try and explain?? Buzz, little help here??

 

[Nut]

Dont you have kids that you want to take hunting someplace out of state some day??

Well I do and I have already crossed off Arizona as a place for me to attempt to ever hunt Big Game. Looks like Utah is crossed off also. When I go west I will go to a place where fellow Americans are welcomed.

 

[BigHornRam]

Schmalts,

Here is quote from Buzz that might give you a little insight to where I'm coming from.

"Most sportsmen talk a big line about supporting wildlife and brag about how much they put into game management...the truth is nearly all of us could afford to put in more. The most direct way to do that is to pay more for your tags/permits"

I'm not rich and I'm not poor. I don't have kids but if I did I would take them hunting where I could afford to hunt. There are plenty of opportunities to go on an affordable hunt. When I grew up, my parents were to busy raising 4 kids to be concerned about taking us on a big rack elk hunt out west. I did get to tag along on an occasional pheasent or squirrel hunt. We also went on a wilderness backpack trip every summer. These were my BEST memories growing up. And guess what, back pack trips require no tags or license unless you want to fish and we did. Dad could afford the fishing licenses for us back then, but how I don't know. I guess they sacrificed in other areas of their personal gratification. I do not feel I was cheated in the slightest growing up. It is my belief that things were WAY tougher back then than they are today. It's all a matter of what is important to you.

Nut,

Your negative attitude is what gets you what you get. Utah non resident tags are some of the most reasonable priced tags in the west. If you applied 10 years ago, you would have had a fraction of the opportunity you have today. True demand keeps going up as well, but that's because there are a lot of people like you who want to hunt out west. Try a cow elk hunt in Colorado or such for an affordable introduction to Western hunting. These hunts go under subscribed and are a good management hunt, and can supply you with a lot of good tasting meat.

 

[schmalts]

Schmalts,

Here is quote from Buzz that might give you a little insight to where I'm coming from.

"Most sportsmen talk a big line about supporting wildlife and brag about how much they put into game management...the truth is nearly all of us could afford to put in more. The most direct way to do that is to pay more for your tags/permits"

Well, how then is having a convention in Salt lake City a way to get support from ALL of us? How is pimping tags to the rich at conventions and in effect limiting the availability for the middle class to get them getting help from all of us?
I think your not getting what i am saying at all. I agree we all need to pay more as residents to our game. We need to stop putting the burden of the cost off on the rich guys because in the end they will be the only ones getting the tags. I never said we should not charge more for tags but raising money by stealing tags from the usual F&G system and pimping them to the rich is wrong.
I am done with this conversation with you as it seems you are having trouble getting the point much less argueing what i cannot get across to you. Go re-read the whole topic on MM as long as it may be it is the best explaination. Thats all i can say for now.

 

[BigHornRam]

Schmalts,

I get what your saying. You feel your equally entitled to Utahs big rack elk tags even though you've done nothing personally to help with their cause.

This sentence tells me you don't have a clue about what I'm talking about.

"I never said we should not charge more for tags but raising money by stealing tags from the usual F&G system and pimping them to the rich is wrong."

Stealing tags? Really? The tags are Utahs and it's up to them to disperse them how they see fit. It's not up to you or me. If Utah had a poorly managed elk herd I'll bet the farm that you and guys like you that wouldn't even bother to apply. They put out a quality high demand product which cost money, and your to cheap to step up to the plate.

I'll run my earlier comment by you one more time, just in hopes it wll sink in. Would you rather have a 100 % chance at 10 tags, or 75% chance at 20 tags? Can you do the math?

I will continue to put in for Utahs 1 in 1000 or what ever N. R. sheep tag and hope for best, and be gratefull for the opportunity.