Alaska Nonres Sheep

[Bambistew]

What a crock. This will have about zero impact on the the guided hunters. We have only once killed 2 sheep on the same trip but my brother has gone back out after i left and shot 4 I believe over the years, so this is a big sacrifice for him IMO having me come up. How about capping the outfitters numbers. They literally shoot out drainages year after year and then push into new country because they can't seem help themselves self manage their areas. Then complain when they bump into non guided hunters in the next drainages. It's An absolute joke!

So this isn't set in stone yet?

We've been trying for 3 years now to get a limit on guided hunters, to no avail. There is small very vocal group of guides that has a lot of pull and a large "outdoor" group who who is on their side, who also has a lot of pull.

It's not 100% done, but all that is left is to write up the regs and codify.

 

[Dinkshooter]

So silly to apply the kin quota thing to goats and bears. They hunt goats nearly year round on Kodiak.

1-4 was fine, the extra stuff where the quota applies to the resident kin was a real F-you from powers that be in the state of Alaska.

 

[jimss]

draws?

So how will the draws work? It obviously won't be possible for both an Alaska resident plus their NOK relative to apply for the same sheep unit together. It must be possible for both to apply for different or similar sheep units in separate applications? I imagine they will have some way of eliminating one sheep application if one if tge Alaska res or NOK relatives draws?

With that said, it is a sad day when a brother and brother in law both can't have sheep tags and hunt together while 2 nonres hunting friends can draw 2 sheep tags and hunt together with a guide! Sure sounds like a crock to me!

 

[BuzzH]

Huh, sounds like this time the outfitters having a heavy hand in wildlife management is wrong?

Different tune when your ox is being gored...

 

[jimss]

I have a feeling things are just getting started in Alaska! Nonres onyourownhunters have their work cut out for them in the coming years!

 

[brhoton]

This is a bunch of crap and just welfare for the outfitters I have enjoyed hunting with my brother ak resident and my other brother az resident I am an az resident on multiple sheep and brown bear hunts. I have good friends and there brothers that have done the same and a cousin who is a resident that has done the same. The areas we hunt are on outfitter guide areas and I all I have heard from them,outfitters is whining and crying about next of kin. We had my best friend and his business partner actually book with the outfitter in the area on a sheep hunt they had a chappy experience with crap food, lazy guides that whined the whole time. We were one drainage down and had a fantastic hunt when they met up with one of or party at the river we float they filled up with some decent grub. I cannot for the life of me understand what diy hunters would NEED a guide to kill a good dall I can very much understand why they would WANT to hire a guide to kill a good dall but being forced to hire one and forcing a monopoly is the biggest blatant govt hand out I can imagine. Let me be clear money for me is not the issue he here I understand it is for some and that is a legitimate carguement against this monopoly my concern is not being able to hunt as a family with my brothers or going on a 3 person outing with only one sheep between us all unless we can get with a guide that we are forced to use. I would pay five or ten times the tag price directly to Alaska to not have to ever use a guide as a non resident. Also while I don't really like it I understand the 1 in 4 rule I just absolutely don't get the Nok charge to resident harvest. I understand I have enjoyed a benefit being Nok and I am whining but I wish they would address real issues in ak and not b pander to cry baby guides with nok. I would even be up for passing their guides test as a nok to eliminate the Nok or guide requirement as a non resident.

 

[brhoton]

Sorry for grammer errors rantingredients on a small phone

 

[jimss]

Done Deal?

Does anyone know if the NOK ruling is a done deal or if they are still receiving comments?

 

[Lawnboy]

There is small very vocal group of guides that has a lot of pull and a large "outdoor" group who who is on their side, who also has a lot of pull.

I.

Is the very large "outdoor" group the BHA up there? I've read a lot and saw their prior proposals. While they are pissed with the outfitters the most they sure were rough on NOK as well. I guess I can't blame them seeing their opportunity changing mostly by the over harvest most guides are experiencing and then you add another "wolf" the NOK guys and they are irritated. Just curious if that's who you were talking about?

 

[Bambistew]

Does anyone know if the NOK ruling is a done deal or if they are still receiving comments?

You can still send them in, but the meeting is all but over. This is done, they voted, and unless tou could persuade them to reconsider before the end of today it's done. You're a little late to the party on comments, the proposal has been on the books for about 6 months. Public testimony was last weekend. There has been a lot of time to comment.

On the up side anyone can write a proposal to change it, and they would have to reconsider it, but it wouldn't be for at least a year or more. Doubt it would get any traction though.

The group I was referring to is IMO the biggest joke of a sportsmans advocacy group in the state. It's called the the Alaska Outdoor Council. They are seriously loony toons on 90% of their stances. They look out for guides, subsistence, NR and then resident hunters... in that order.

Honestly, what I find entertaining about Alaska game management is that NR expect to be treated the same as residents... where as, no other state puts nr opportunity on equal ground as their residents, nor promotes it. Every state has restrictions of some sort or another, yet AK is supposed to be a welfare state for NR. Look at the vitrol of the MT native elk/deer license program. The mear thought of a NR getting a tag without going through the draw, brings out the furvor. Why do the western states have limits on NRs?

The NOK thing doesnt bother me as it doesn't affect me. It may in the future but, you know what, I'd let them shoot the sheep or bear that year of it meant I could go with them. Everyone is worried about getting "theirs." You aught to feel lucky to have the opportunity to share. A draw for all NR sheep will happen, its a matter of time.

I've tagged along on a few sheep hunts, and had a great time.

 

[BuzzH]

Honestly, what I find entertaining about Alaska game management is that NR expect to be treated the same as residents... where as, no other state puts nr opportunity on equal ground as their residents, nor promotes it. Every state has restrictions of some sort or another, yet AK is supposed to be a welfare state for NR.

The NOK thing doesnt bother me as it doesn't affect me. It may in the future but, you know what, I'd let them shoot the sheep or bear that year of it meant I could go with them. Everyone is worried about getting "theirs." You aught to feel lucky to have the opportunity to share. A draw for all NR sheep will happen, its a matter of time.

I've tagged along on a few sheep hunts, and had a great time.

I agree 100% with this. Alaska residents should be looking out for themselves, way before outfitters, landowners, real-estate agents, NR hunters, etc.

The only thing that should take priority over Resident hunters is the health of the habitat and the wildlife itself. That should always be the first priority.

From there it should be resident opportunity first, and the rest should be down the list.

Its funny to listen to some on these types of threads howl and moan about changes that impact them as NR hunters in states they don't live in. Some will go so far as to even "worry" about and promote the industry (outfitters) that has put the screws to them all along. IN particular, if there is short term gain in it for them to do so. Some people are total sell-outs for their own greed. Never mind that almost all of the discriminatory things imposed on NR's has been at the hands of outfitters (preference points, tiered license fees, wilderness guide laws, landowner tags, outfitter only pools, guide requirements for some species, etc.).

Then to top off the hypocrisy, those that do the howling, do NOTHING to help increase NR opportunity in the states they live in. They even complain when states want to put the same limits on NR hunters as the states they live in! Unbelievable!

The consistent thing to do is for every state to give their resident hunters a lions share of the available resource.

If that means limiting NR's to 10% of the tags, so be it. If that means passing laws like this NOK deal in Alaska, so be it.

I also agree that statewide drawing for sheep in AK, at least for NR, is going to be the next step.

 

[jimss]

I'm sure there is a chunk of Alaska residents that are somewhat frustrated that they no longer will be able to hunt sheep the same year with their nonres father, brother, or other relatives! Nonres guided hunters can hunt every year they are eligible with friends. If I'm not mistaken, the new reg is taking opportunity away from Alaska residents while pretty much status quo for guided hunters?

All nonres are welcome to hunt my home state of Colorado every year for elk! We have OTC elk tags and you bring gobs of $ to our small town communities!

 

[Lawnboy]

Everyone is worried about getting "theirs." You aught to feel lucky to have the opportunity to share. A draw for all NR sheep will happen, its a matter of time.

I've tagged along on a few sheep hunts, and had a great time.

This is a real good point and one I have discussed with my brother. I've gotten 2 sheep on 7 trips and I would say all 7 trips were successful. We have rotated most years as to who would be shooter and some years just haven't connected. I've gotten to do what 99% of most couldn't do and I'll never forget the trips and memories made with family. I would continue to do it for double what I have been paying and at least my money would be going to the state.

 

[jimss]

Similar to Lawnboy I feel VERY fortunate having the opportunity to hunt wild sheep in Alaska with close family. Each of these experiences have been lifetime dreams fulfilled! I have almost felt guilty that I have been able to take advantage of my opportunities while other nonres can only afford to dream of these experiences. I think it would be great if all nonres had the same opportunity to hunt wild sheep in Alaska. Hopefully some day this will be a reality. As stated above there are likely special interest groups that have a lot of "say" in what happens in high places in the decision making process....so there are lots of hoops to cross for this to happen.

 

[BuzzH]

The resource couldn't take every NR having the opportunity to hunt sheep DIY in AK.

Sheep are a finite resource, even in AK.

Best case that could ever be hoped for is statewide draw for NR's and no guide requirement on all, or at least a portion of the tags.

The biggest lesson to learn in cases like this:

If the opportunity presents itself, go now, as things are very likely to change and nothing lasts forever. The two hunts I regret not doing, when I had the chance, are grizzly in MT and goat in AK when a guide wasn't required. Should have done both, always thought it would be there forever.

I'm really glad I took advantage of hunting sheep in the Chugach as a NR when I could pay for it with a 2 week fire check working seasonal for the FS. That chance I didn't blow, and was rewarded with a B&C dall ram.

 

[Oak]

One idea is to make more sheep. I hope you are all working on that as you argue over allocation of what we currently have.

 

[Lawnboy]

One idea is to make more sheep. I hope you are all working on that as you argue over allocation of what we currently have.

I've been praying for mild winters every year up there. So far this year in my area it is pretty mild and with last year being a disaster of rain and low visibility for weeks there should of been many critters spared.

Joking Aside I hear what you're saying.

 

[CabinFever]

I did not read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has all been stated.

To briefly sum things up, my understanding is that they want to limit sheep harvest somehow, and probably don't care how-period. There was plenty of representation at the meeting for residents and outfitters, but no one speaking up for next-of-kin, there for next-of-kin takes it in the gut.

While it may not seem fair and likely isn't, I have to agree with Oak's last post. Data shows that NR's are much more successful and therefore do more damage per capita to sheep populations than Residents. Yes, that data includes outfitted hunters, however a surprisingly large percentage of NR's did not check the "hired an outfitter" box on their reports, meaning quite a lot of them were next-of-kin. Despite Lawnboy's success, Next-of-kin hunters do have much higher success rates per capita than residents hunters, likely because they take it more seriously when they make an effort to come. Limiting next-of-kin will make a difference on sheep harvest no doubt.
Should the restrictions be shared between the 3 groups? Yes, for sure. But it looks like this is where it will start. No doubt outfitter harvest should be limited, but IMO that limitation should start with concessions on state land. And beings they've fought that battle and lost several times, and now the state is flat broke, I'm not holding my breath. Good outfitters are pro-concession because they know they will win them, the wad of scumbag outfitters is staunchly against them, knowing they'll be weeded out in short order.
Oak is right, everyone wants more sheep and more mature sheep on the mountain and this will help. I'm as bummed as you though Lawnboy, I moved up here 18 months ago and am in the middle of planning the next few years of hunts with my NR brothers and this puts a huge damper on that situation.

 

[jimss]

Sheep numbers

Oak, I hunted sheep last year in a unit that the AKG&F has been monitoring closely the past few years. Unfortunately sheep numbers in that unit are plummeting. According to a source that does the counts, collar surveys, etc in those particular sheep units. Eagles killing lambs is one of the main sources of sheep loss in that area. Avalanches are another source. They also found several sheep dying from lung worm and pneumonia. I'm not exactly sure what can be done with eagle predation? Hopefully lung worm doesn't continue to spread or things could be worse than they already are! You are absolutely right that increasing sheep and improving habitat should definitely be a priority! When sheep numbers are high there are more tags available and everyone seems to be happy!

 

[Bambistew]

One idea is to make more sheep. I hope you are all working on that as you argue over allocation of what we currently have.

Someone's fishing.

The number one reason for declining sheep is weather. Can't fix that... next is dependent on range, its either predators (recent newcomers aka coyotes, wolves and eagles) or avalanches (Chugach range). Pretty sure we kill more predators via trappong and have more controversial predator managment programs than all the lessor 48 combined, and we're not going to start an avalanche program anytime soon.

There are definitely things that could be done to improve numbers, but not softball simple like installing a guzzler, or transplanting sheep. Good luck finding a herd we can pull surplus sheep from in AK... they're not even doing well in National Parks. A future study is going to look at the differences in herd dynamics between NP and open hunting areas.

We can cut NR harvest and put more sheep on the mountain in one year than any lesser 48 sheep managment program has ever done. By having more mature rams on the mountain we may get higher pregnancy rates and possibly better winter survival. We need go take a serious look at what the FC rule has done to the population instead of relying on a 30 year old study. The age at harvest is now the lowest in history. I find it odd that it mirrors the population trend, but I'm not a bio.

Currious, with the make more sheep remark. How many states have thriving sheep popoulations? For as many orgs as we have, there must be a shinning example (I can take pot shots as well.)

Funny how the allocation argument/jab is only valid in Alaska, whereas every other state already has a quota set with the lions share going to residents.