Afghanistan

[SaskHunter]

I fear most for the women and the female children subjected to the incoming and eventual entire leadership of this multi generational, war torn country.

As the father of two beautiful daugthers and husband of a strong, intelligent and independant woman, this saddens me the most.

We've hopefully enabled a generation of women and maybe have given a lot of them the tools to better their lives. But things will likely go back to how they were. I don't truat the Taliban for one second and am convinced innocents will start dying en masse.

 

[Handlebar]

We did not understand the tribal dynamics, we never did. We think everybody wants what we have. It’s cultural obtuseness, obliviousness to their reality.
Michael Zacchea
U.S. MARINE CORPS LT. COL. (RET)

Absolutely, We tried to instill our values on a different culture and it was doomed from the start sadly. I don't fault Pres. Biden with withdrawing frankly I think we should have been out there a long time ago. But giving up Bagram Air base and relying on the airport at Kabul is very puzzling. I have a lot of heartburn about the General Staff handling of things lately seem to be more interested in other things than the task at hand. Afghanistan has been called the "graveyard of empires" for a reason. I think the only winners here were the military industrial complex that made a lot of money, and the heroin industry.

 

[Panda Bear]

My better half spent two tours in that place. Described the people as remarkable, capable of being absolutely horrific. She has been writing letters supporting extraction of some of her Afghan teammates. I hope she has some success, one was killed last week. She is emotionally spent at the moment.

please thank her and support her, as I know you will

If my husband has his figures correct, here in Canada we have had more veterans from the Afghan war commit suicide since they have come home than died in combat when there. We have reached out to as many as we know and everyone we have spoken with are depressed. We are attempting to bring some of them to us and take a river trip with them.

We extend our thank you to all American and Canadians who have served and our still serving

 

[EKYHunter]

Opinion | Why Afghan Forces So Quickly Laid Down Their Arms

Opposing Afghan factions have long negotiated arrangements to stop fighting — something the U.S. either failed to understand or chose to ignore.

www.politico.com

I have no idea of the veracity of this authors claims, but I thought it was an interesting piece. If it's true it helps me rationalize how the Taliban so quickly retook the country.

Especially since the release of the Afghanistan papers in 2019 I've believed that the situation was more complex than most of us could comprehend. I suspect that the Afghan culture is so different from ours that we struggle to understand their motivations.

I believe that you are spot on with this. I’ve been reading a lot about this situation in Afghanistan and there’s SO much more to it than the MSM talking points on both sides.

 

[kylemcintyre67]

I have nothing but deference and gratitude to those who served, and this is just my 100,000 ft view opinion. I’m just some bastard on the Internet with a cup of coffee and a thought, so take it with a grain of salt.

History will look upon US involvement in Afghanistan as another sad case of hubris, and an example of those who ignore history being doomed to repeat it.

The failed withdrawal, the corrupt financial dealings, the continued suffering of our veterans - all very messy and important to understand, but if there’s one thing I hope we should learn it is this:

We should’ve never engaged in that war in the first place.

This right here. We played right into AQ's game plan. Gave them exactly what they wanted. A never ending war to drain resources and blood from our empire. We did every terrible thing they accused us of in the process, rape, torture, indiscriminate murder of civilians. We helped them radicalize generations against us. And of course on our way out we will abandon anyone who made the decision to throw in with us like they are garbage. I used to be one of the true believers. So much so that after I got out of the Navy, having all ready been in the fight, I joined the Army a year later. I thought we were the shining moral light, the beacon on the hill. I felt bad that my brothers and sisters were in the fight without me. I believed all of that garbage. I thought I was serving and helping my fellow man. Turns out I am an idiot. We will never have justice for the victims of these foreign terrorists, because we are the same. Of course Afghanistan was going to fall to the Taliban when we left. That has been clear for a very long time. pretty much since day one. Of course the people we abandoned want nothing to do with fighting for our vision of their country. And per usual we are ignoring the only thing we could do to actually alleviate the suffering to come. We should open our borders to any man woman or child that wants to escape that nightmare, regardless of weather they helped us while we were there or not. It doesn't matter though, just like his beloved predecessor did with Iraq, ole Joe will have us back in Afghanistan in the next couple years. More bloodshed, more destruction. The sorrow will never end.

 

[davinski]

I was there 03-04, my first and last tour, got out shortly after. It's been well past time to go for a long long time. I've followed pretty closely because I can't help it. But, wow, what an exit. They literally had 20 years to plan the exit tactics and I doubt you could have created a worse rolling dumpster fire if you tried. Why we couldn't just retract to a small footprint and keep it as a hunting lodge for the snake-eaters to go erase bad guys in the night, I will never understand.

Anyway, these are a couple of the better articles I’ve read. That HJ one will be good to follow, I’ve read all six parts in their writers forum, I think they’re up to part 4 today. They won’t really be that long, Chris O is pretty succinct and spot firetrucking on.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/16/afghanistan-history-taliban-collapse-504977

https://amplifiedbeing.com/2021/08/15/what-just-happened/

https://havokjournal.com/culture/military/the-six-reason-the-taliban-won-afghanistan-part-1/

Oh, and here's a fun kernel to roll around. Do a little calendar math relative to evac operations. Guess which date will likely be Taliban Independence Day.

 

[homers]

I think the end result of the US pullout would have been the fall of the gov't. So whether we did it quickly or slowly, or whether the gov't held for 11 days or 3 months, the result would be the same. Taliban takeover. Human nature that the gov't would fall.

 

[marshman]

Two trillion dollars spent in that Afghanistan. Seems like enough to me; I cannot help but think what that could have done for our own people and country?
I think we have spent enough there.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

I'll say it again. I don't tell you your place on here please don't tell me mine

I know mine. You've mistaken yours.

Kabul has fallen to evil. I don't want to see the same happen to Hunt Talk.

 

[TwistedSage]

I think the end result of the US pullout would have been the fall of the gov't. So whether we did it quickly or slowly, or weather the gov't held for 11 days or 3 months, the result would be the same. Taliban takeover. Human nature that the gov't would fall.

I do think that the fall of the propped up government was inevitable. The government pulling out the security element before the state department, American citizens, and Afghan allies were able to evacuate was not. To plan for every contingency would also mean having a plan in place to destroy the military equipment before it could fall into the hands of the enemy.

The sacrifices were not in vain, the below post if from the other thread but should be read. Thank you for posting that @rwc101

One of the guys my BIL served with posted this on the Facebook today.

View attachment 191595

 

[iiiNelson]

The last time I was in Afghanistan was February 8, 2012… I don’t go too deeply into the stories of my time there but my feelings on Afghanistan come down to this.

We can have the best (or amongst the best) trigger pullers, logistics, weapons, equipment, etc. but if we go into ANY theater without a clear strategic end state then it’s all a complete waste of human and political capital. If we don’t have a fundamental understanding educationally about other cultures, religion, etc. how can we expect to design effective strategic plans.

Additionally, waging war the way we have has to change. I have no doubt that we can kill better and more effectively than any nation on the Earth ever has to this date if we so choose. What we don’t do well is have direction to transition once the shooting slows and diplomacy has to take place. War is corporate… we wage wars based on capitalism more often than not and in some ways it’s more insidious because it’s a war of fluid interests… and allegiances change far too easily in periods far too short. I think people can understand war for protection or retaliation… what they have a harder time with is that our friends from a few years ago are now “the devil” and now we gonna overthrow their power base because it’s not in the interest of our financial benefactors… For instance supporting Iraq because Saudi’s far preferred Saddam to the Iranian Shah’s… until they didn’t after the invasion of Kuwait with the reasonable expectation that they’d soon turn their military towards Riyadh. Iraq would look a lot differently if they had controlling interest of OPEC… much like African Union would look a lot different if they control their own strategic mineral rights without nations like China or European banks manipulating value and pricing. Think about the economy of African nations with the chip shortages, multinational strategic defense and power grids that relies on nuclear material, the cosmetic jewel industry, etc.

With Afghanistan there was never a set objective of what success was gonna look like publicly. Kinda hard to go to war without a clear objective - and “ending terrorism” is a moving target.

No one wants to hear this but in making a “boogie man” out of all of our adversaries to sell a war effort to the people, it makes it near impossible to come to the negotiation table in earnest on some level. All of these groups have end states that are opposing to Western culture on some level but the reality is that the best case scenario is to allow them to be recognized as a legitimate sovereign gov’t by the UN security commission, establish a “safe zone” or divide some land for the people that don’t want to participate in their ethno-religious state, and ultimately have the UN provide a level of security jointly for those areas until they can have a functioning government/military presence FE for themselves - but at that point we are talking diplomacy. We collectively (not just the United States but every country involved in the coalition) largely bungled this part of things.

 

[Guest member 25165]

I know mine. You've mistaken yours.

Kabul has fallen to evil. I don't want to see the same happen to Hunt Talk.

Alright I will keep it to the topic of Afghanistan. My brother was a heavy machine gunner in Afghanistan right after 9/11. His job was to clear Al Qaeda caves. Just him and another soldier would walk into these dark caves with NODS and a 3 round burst set on their rifles. He did 3 tours in the middle east. Couldn't talk about where he was, what he was doing, when he would be home. My mom was a nervous wreck. When he got home, we went to a movie together. As we were watching the previews of the movie, Aaron (my brother) started tugging at his shirt and removed himself to go to the restroom. He said he didn't feel the best. 20 minutes went by and still no brother back in his seat. I got up, went to the restroom, and found my brother soaked in sweat, using the hand dryers in the theater to try and dry himself off. He told me that "everyone was looking at him" even though we were in a dark theater. It was that point that I knew something was wrong with my brother. After that, Aaron enrolled himself in college and tried to graduate with an English teaching degree but the panic attacks forced him to graduate without him doing his student teaching. Long story short, his tours f'ed up his life. The VA diagnosed him with PTSD and he is now considered a disabled vet. He just recently got his life somewhat back together but he is 41 years old. He is unmarried, has had a considerable tough time keeping jobs and relationships, and his disability has caused so many family issues I can't even begin to explain. He touched a gun (tried shooting trap) for the first time last year since being out of the military which has been almost 20 years.

Aaron is one of the bravest men I know. He volunteered to put himself in harms way, to clear caves, and he put his life and future at risk for a cause that he didn't fully understand at the time and I am not so sure it's even understandable now. Am I upset about what is happening in Afghanistan? Yes, but I am far more concerned about my brother and his well being. His story is no different than many of the other stories on here from other members or their family and I certainly am not trying to paint our situation as more important than anyone else's here. My brother fought for personal freedoms like you being able to tell me to "shut up" on this thread. Well, he also fought for my freedom to tell you to piss off.

 

[iiiNelson]

We did have a narrow justification for military action in Afghanistan. Bin Laden was making his base there and we nearly got him early in the war. It's too bad he escaped for a time.

It is the mission creep that got us into trouble. We look at their culture and find it repugnant. They look at ours and many of them find it repugnant.

We were too full of ourselves to think we could change the way they view the world.

Often when I think of the two recent wars, I think of our former neighbor, who served tours in both countries, as a marine. He has dealt with the emotional scars since coming home. He has a wonderful wife and kids. They were great neighbors, they moved to Alaska a few years ago. I hope that life has been kind to them.

Historically many of the cities throughout the Middle East, Arabian Peninsula, and SW Asia were liberal bastions not unlike any other world city. Kabul is still something of a thriving metropolis. Prior to the Russians coming into Afghanistan in the late 70’s, Kabul was very pro west ironically like Tehran for the younger citizens. What’s interesting about Afghanistan is that often the tribal areas rule the local and city governments despite not being involved with day to day life.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Alright I will keep it to the topic of Afghanistan. My brother was a heavy machine gunner in Afghanistan right after 9/11. His job was to clear Al Qaeda caves. Just him and another soldier would walk into these dark caves with NODS and a 3 round burst set on their rifles. He did 3 tours in the middle east. Couldn't talk about where he was, what he was doing, when he would be home. My mom was a nervous wreck. When he got home, we went to a movie together. As we were watching the previews of the movie, Aaron (my brother) started tugging at his shirt and removed himself to go to the restroom. He said he didn't feel the best. 20 minutes went by and still no brother back in his seat. I got up, went to the restroom, and found my brother soaked in sweat, using the hand dryers in the theater to try and dry himself off. He told me that "everyone was looking at him" even though we were in a dark theater. It was that point that I knew something was wrong with my brother. After that, Aaron enrolled himself in college and tried to graduate with an English teaching degree but the panic attacks forced him to graduate without him doing his student teaching. Long story short, his tours f'ed up his life. The VA diagnosed him with PTSD and he is now considered a disabled vet. He just recently got his life somewhat back together but he is 41 years old. He is unmarried, has had a considerable tough time keeping jobs and relationships, and his disability has caused so many family issues I can't even begin to explain. He touched a gun (tried shooting trap) for the first time last year since being out of the military which has been almost 20 years.

Aaron is one of the bravest men I know. He volunteered to put himself in harms way, to clear caves, and he put his life and future at risk for a cause that he didn't fully understand at the time and I am not so sure it's even understandable now. Am I upset about what is happening in Afghanistan? Yes, but I am far more concerned about my brother and his well being. His story is no different than many of the other stories on here from other members or their family and I certainly am not trying to paint our situation as more important than anyone else's here. My brother fought for personal freedoms like you being able to tell me to "shut up" on this thread. Well, he also fought for my freedom to tell you to piss off.I reiterate my original

Alright I will keep it to the topic of Afghanistan. My brother was a heavy machine gunner in Afghanistan right after 9/11. His job was to clear Al Qaeda caves. Just him and another soldier would walk into these dark caves with NODS and a 3 round burst set on their rifles. He did 3 tours in the middle east. Couldn't talk about where he was, what he was doing, when he would be home. My mom was a nervous wreck. When he got home, we went to a movie together. As we were watching the previews of the movie, Aaron (my brother) started tugging at his shirt and removed himself to go to the restroom. He said he didn't feel the best. 20 minutes went by and still no brother back in his seat. I got up, went to the restroom, and found my brother soaked in sweat, using the hand dryers in the theater to try and dry himself off. He told me that "everyone was looking at him" even though we were in a dark theater. It was that point that I knew something was wrong with my brother. After that, Aaron enrolled himself in college and tried to graduate with an English teaching degree but the panic attacks forced him to graduate without him doing his student teaching. Long story short, his tours f'ed up his life. The VA diagnosed him with PTSD and he is now considered a disabled vet. He just recently got his life somewhat back together but he is 41 years old. He is unmarried, has had a considerable tough time keeping jobs and relationships, and his disability has caused so many family issues I can't even begin to explain. He touched a gun (tried shooting trap) for the first time last year since being out of the military which has been almost 20 years.

Aaron is one of the bravest men I know. He volunteered to put himself in harms way, to clear caves, and he put his life and future at risk for a cause that he didn't fully understand at the time and I am not so sure it's even understandable now. Am I upset about what is happening in Afghanistan? Yes, but I am far more concerned about my brother and his well being. His story is no different than many of the other stories on here from other members or their family and I certainly am not trying to paint our situation as more important than anyone else's here. My brother fought for personal freedoms like you being able to tell me to "shut up" on this thread. Well, he also fought for my freedom to tell you to piss off.

Wow. Great story. You really changed my mind.

No, wait. I reiterate my original post. Have a nice day.

 

[Nemont]

Hey Jess,

Sorry about your brother and his struggles, you aren't the only person on here who has loved ones who served and came home a different person. Yes there is freedom to say what you want but being a dick about things seems to be a more natural gift you have and has nothing to do with your brother and price he has had to pay for his service to the nation.

You have a right to post what you want but I would suggest rereading some of it prior to hitting the "post reply" button.

Nemont

 

[El Jason]

With Afghanistan there was never a set objective of what success was gonna look like publicly.

I read an article that described it as 20 one year missions instead of one 20 year mission.

 

[Guest member 25165]

Hey Jess,

Sorry about your brother and his struggles, you aren't the only person on here who has loved ones who served and came home a different person. Yes there is freedom to say what you want but being a dick about things seems to be a more natural gift you have and has nothing to do with your brother and price he has had to pay for his service to the nation.

You have a right to post what you want but I would suggest rereading some of it prior to hitting the "post reply" button.

Nemont

I get told to shut up by a member, I politely tell him to mind his own business, he rants again and I tell him to piss off and I am the dick? How does that work? Please explain that to me.

 

[FranklinME]

You literally couldn't handle the exit this poorly if you tried. Embarrassing for our country.

 

[Randi]

Alright I will keep it to the topic of Afghanistan. My brother was a heavy machine gunner in Afghanistan right after 9/11. His job was to clear Al Qaeda caves. Just him and another soldier would walk into these dark caves with NODS and a 3 round burst set on their rifles. He did 3 tours in the middle east. Couldn't talk about where he was, what he was doing, when he would be home. My mom was a nervous wreck. When he got home, we went to a movie together. As we were watching the previews of the movie, Aaron (my brother) started tugging at his shirt and removed himself to go to the restroom. He said he didn't feel the best. 20 minutes went by and still no brother back in his seat. I got up, went to the restroom, and found my brother soaked in sweat, using the hand dryers in the theater to try and dry himself off. He told me that "everyone was looking at him" even though we were in a dark theater. It was that point that I knew something was wrong with my brother. After that, Aaron enrolled himself in college and tried to graduate with an English teaching degree but the panic attacks forced him to graduate without him doing his student teaching. Long story short, his tours f'ed up his life. The VA diagnosed him with PTSD and he is now considered a disabled vet. He just recently got his life somewhat back together but he is 41 years old. He is unmarried, has had a considerable tough time keeping jobs and relationships, and his disability has caused so many family issues I can't even begin to explain. He touched a gun (tried shooting trap) for the first time last year since being out of the military which has been almost 20 years.

Aaron is one of the bravest men I know. He volunteered to put himself in harms way, to clear caves, and he put his life and future at risk for a cause that he didn't fully understand at the time and I am not so sure it's even understandable now. Am I upset about what is happening in Afghanistan? Yes, but I am far more concerned about my brother and his well being. His story is no different than many of the other stories on here from other members or their family and I certainly am not trying to paint our situation as more important than anyone else's here. My brother fought for personal freedoms like you being able to tell me to "shut up" on this thread. Well, he also fought for my freedom to tell you to piss off.

I am sorry that your brother has and is having a hard time adjusting since having served. I thank him for his service and wish him well.

However in regards to the last sentence of your post. I think I would have simply said "he fought for our freedom of speech" Which he did and we thank him for doing so. However this gentleman probably stated it better than I did

Hey Jess,

Sorry about your brother and his struggles, you aren't the only person on here who has loved ones who served and came home a different person. Yes there is freedom to say what you want but being a dick about things seems to be a more natural gift you have and has nothing to do with your brother and price he has had to pay for his service to the nation.

You have a right to post what you want but I would suggest rereading some of it prior to hitting the "post reply" button.

Nemont

As mentioned on the other thread discussing this issue, my grandfather and brother are both struggling at the moment, as are a couple other friends of the family.

Tough time and emotions are high.

Salmonchaser: I hope you are back in Oregon or she is with you in Alaska. Please thank her, for me, for her service

And thanks to everyone who has served , you service was and is appreciated

 

[iiiNelson]

I read an article that described it as 20 one year missions instead of one 20 year mission.

There is probably some truth and level of accuracy in that comment.

To be clear, my criticism is directed towards the political class and not the military… or even the State Department. There has to be leadership that facilitates an environment where everyone can beat execute their jobs. I also think if we are being honest this failure falls on four Presidents alike and several sessions of Congress that abdicated their duties (and our freedoms) under the guise of security. The failures also fall on partner nations and the UN as well. We kinda just failed, or at best, did an incomplete job in that region as a whole.