A Way to Repair Broken Points Systems?

[Deleted member 20812]

Hmmm... except these two got to drink the beer they paid for. LOL

That’s because they were smart enough to spend money on a tangible item that could be delivered upon exchange of currency.

 

[gallagher71]

When you “allow more to play” that will
Just mean more Applicants which will
Increase point creep Even further.

Also more funds going to the state doesn’t equate to more opportunities at all…

There's no creep past 10 points when max points is 10 points. It becomes a jump ball for max point holders.

If the trustees of the wildlife trust in each state aren't managing the corpus for the direct or indirect benefit of the beneficiaries, in this case the resident hunters, that is fixable.

 

[gallagher71]

I don’t see how your system improves anything. I think you are missing that your 10 point holders are not drawing tags and leaving the applicant pool any faster than folks draw and leave the pool now. All that happens is the number of 10 point holders balloons because more people enter the group with 10 points than leave it every year. Eventually most applicants all have 10 points and it’s effectively a random draw with a 10 year waiting period. What did that accomplish, exactly?

Just go random and be done with it.

You are spot on correct. At least for many tags. But in the process, you've purged the system of 10+ point holders without punishing them (they've done nothing wrong) and you have converted from point creep to random draws for those higher point tags.

 

[Hunting Wife]

You are spot on correct. At least for many tags. But in the process, you've purged the system of 10+ point holders without punishing them (they've done nothing wrong) and you have converted from point creep to random draws for those higher point tags.

But we punish people on the front end by forcing them to buy 10 completely useless points they can’t use before entering a random draw? I just don’t get it I guess. Doesn’t seem fixed to me.

 

[RobertD]

You are spot on correct. At least for many tags. But in the process, you've purged the system of 10+ point holders without punishing them (they've done nothing wrong) and you have converted from point creep to random draws for those higher point tags.

Not to pile on, but what you would have really done is trade, not purge, 10+ points holders for 10.0 point holders.

Like others have said you'll eventually create a random draw with a 10 year wait to enter the drawing. Plus as you remove all the people above 10, the people at 10.0 grow, so by the time it becomes a random draw for just the people at 10.0 the odds are going to be bad and getting worse.

So it becomes "I can start building now, but I'll eventually compete in a random draw with every point holder who is even with me or ahead of me in line (out to 10 points)." Thus, I know the odds get worse with every year I wait to finally be eligible.

I have a hard time seeing who really benefits from this besides the state that gets 10 years of point money from people before they can even hope for a tag.

I would tweak your idea to something like this:

no new points will be issued from here forward, under any circumstance. Start year 1 with a random/pref hybrid draw that starts at 10/90 and increases on the random side 2-4% per year. It "cheapens" people's points but at a gradual rate, allows people room to burn points and get out to join the growing random side, and may even encourage it. Eventually it will shift to 100% random and any remaining points anyone is holding die or maybe you leave a point pool of 20% until the point burners get their chance to burn. Different options.

 

[Trial153]

Only way to fix point creep is to do away with points entirely.


Have a multi state agreement with R/NR tag split, 80/20..85/15 ish seems about right.
Have a NR a application cap at 10 total yearly applications.
Upfront non refundable licenses for any state you apply in.
Upfront refundable tag fees also.
All random draws.
Extra tags sell them first come first serve.

Everyone gets a equal random chance at NR tags. No points, no bull shit

 

[RobertD]

Only way to fix point creep is to do away with points entirely.


Have a multi state agreement with R/NR tag split, 80/20..85/15 ish seems about right.
Have a NR a application cap at 10 total yearly applications.
Upfront non refundable licenses for any state you apply in.
Upfront refundable tag fees also.
All random draws.
Extra tags sell them first come first serve.

Everyone gets a equal random chance at NR tags. No points, no bull shit

Love it but my one point of contention:

I see many people suggest a multi-state or even federalized system. And I have to honestly ask, is that a realistic possibility?

How to you account for different goals different states hold? Ex. Colorado wants to give lots of elk tags to NRs. New Mexico wants to give them to landowners. Montana wants them to go to guided clients. (Broad brushes but you get the idea.) Wouldn't those kinds of differences prevent the cohesion required for such a system?

That's not even counting logistics of state biologists setting goals based on infield work and the conflicts that can cause.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

And I have to honestly ask, is that a realistic possibility?

No.

 

[Trial153]

Love it but my one point of contention:

I see many people suggest a multi-state or even federalized system. And I have to honestly ask, is that a realistic possibility?

How to you account for different goals different states hold? Ex. Colorado wants to give lots of elk tags to NRs. New Mexico wants to give them to landowners. Montana wants them to go to guided clients. (Broad brushes but you get the idea.) Wouldn't those kinds of differences prevent the cohesion required for such a system?

That's not even counting logistics of state biologists setting goals based on infield work and the conflicts that can cause.

Agree, nobody wants federal over sight / cooperation …..except when they have their hand out to take federal money.
I also agree that states working together to create a system that treats each other fairly and equally is a pipe dream.

I don’t see where having fair/equal NR/R splits and NR application changes any state management in regards to objectives Ect. States are free to manage their game as see fit.

It will however end point creep and allow us to apply fairly.

 

[WIbiggame]

have a hard time seeing who really benefits from this

Just the OP and all of the people who weren't around when point systems started.

Do point systems suck yes they do and they suck because I wasn't around to buy points at the bottom level. So instead of complaining about it why don't you do what you can and hunt what you can now?

Because in 10 year when you have enough points to even have a chance in your dream world you could've done a handful of really fun things in the mountains that you won't be able to now. Because as mentioned demand isn't going away and supply isn't going up.

Seems to me like you are only happy with a "glory tag" instead of going out and enjoying hunting for more than the potential of killing a large antlered animal.

I would personally rather hunt 7 general tags than wait 10 years to potentially hunt 1 "glory tag".

 

[Shangobango]

2. Making 50% to 90% of tags random in a previously true preference point state doesn't work. Can't bait and switch those point buyers who've invested in points for 15, 20, or even 30 years in some states by diluting their pool to those levels.

I am not so sure about this.

How many States have changed their pyramid scheme after they started it? Most of the changes I know about devalued the points held.

I say the fairest solution would be something along the lines @ImBillT has stated.

The simplest thing would be give the point holders 3 years to burn them and on the 4th year go true random.

 

[Trial153]

Just the OP and all of the people who weren't around when point systems started.

Do point systems suck yes they do and they suck because I wasn't around to buy points at the bottom level. So instead of complaining about it why don't you do what you can and hunt what you can now?

Because in 10 year when you have enough points to even have a chance in your dream world you could've done a handful of really fun things in the mountains that you won't be able to now. Because as mentioned demand isn't going away and supply isn't going up.

Seems to me like you are only happy with a "glory tag" instead of going out and enjoying hunting for more than the potential of killing a large antlered animal.

I would personally rather hunt 7 general tags than wait 10 years to potentially hunt 1 "glory tag".

I think the OPs fix is ridiculous.

That said to paint the picture that point creep and points in general only affect “glory” tags is disingenuous and not an accurate portrayal of the current state of affairs in western big game hunting. Further more implying that the neg affects of points are caused by self infliction vs a flawed system is …well bull shit as well.

 

[Buffs35]

Just the OP and all of the people who weren't around when point systems started.

Do point systems suck yes they do and they suck because I wasn't around to buy points at the bottom level. So instead of complaining about it why don't you do what you can and hunt what you can now?

Because in 10 year when you have enough points to even have a chance in your dream world you could've done a handful of really fun things in the mountains that you won't be able to now. Because as mentioned demand isn't going away and supply isn't going up.

Seems to me like you are only happy with a "glory tag" instead of going out and enjoying hunting for more than the potential of killing a large antlered animal.

I would personally rather hunt 7 general tags than wait 10 years to potentially hunt 1 "glory tag".

I would agree with most of your post, but I for one don't think point systems suck. I love the fact that I can reasonably predict what tags I get. I will gladly pay for points, and even accumulate more than I need, in order to plan my hunting calendar.

 

[WIbiggame]

I think the OPs fix is ridiculous.

That said to paint the picture that point creep and points in general only affect “glory” tags is disingenuous and not an accurate portrayal of the current state of affairs in western big game hunting. Further more implying that the neg affects of points are caused by self infliction vs a flawed system is …well bull shit as well.

It is a flawed system 100%. I was saying trying to fix it like the OP said fixed absolutely nothing just made a different problem.

And yes it partially not all but partially self infliction. You don't want to sit and wait buying "worthless points" than don't do it and buy the
points for general tags or tags you can reach.

I realize it affect general tags too and the OPs idea will hurt them even worse bc once you hit your 10 point max that is going to be what it takes to draw any tag general or premiere as if someone sits at the max long enough they will dump points for a general thus making all tags a 10yr wait.

 

[gallagher71]

That’s because they were smart enough to spend money on a tangible item that could be delivered upon exchange of currency.

But we punish people on the front end by forcing them to buy 10 completely useless points they can’t use before entering a random draw? I just don’t get it I guess. Doesn’t seem fixed to me.

They buy 10 points for the high point tags and they're eligible instead of buying 20 but never getting to the goal line.

 

[WIbiggame]

I love the fact that I can reasonably predict what tags I get.

As do I and I like points for places where I can reach a tag. However I hate them in places where people can't ever really each a tag. So as you can see with the amount of I's the likes and dislike are to my advantage and people like me.

Even if you are 2 years out from the start you might not ever catch some of the tags. I see the sucky part of this but don't know there is a fix short of pissing off 1 group, max point holders or people just getting into the game.

 

[WIbiggame]

They buy 10 points for the high point tags and they're eligible instead of buying 20 but never getting to the goal line.

And in the process drive up the lower points tags bc an exponentially larger pool hits max points and realize their odds are dropping at an exponential rate for the high point tag. And they go and apply for the low point or general tag thus driving all tags to be a 10 year wait. Complete corrupt money grab.

 

[gallagher71]

Not to pile on, but what you would have really done is trade, not purge, 10+ points holders for 10.0 point holders.

Like others have said you'll eventually create a random draw with a 10 year wait to enter the drawing. Plus as you remove all the people above 10, the people at 10.0 grow, so by the time it becomes a random draw for just the people at 10.0 the odds are going to be bad and getting worse.

So it becomes "I can start building now, but I'll eventually compete in a random draw with every point holder who is even with me or ahead of me in line (out to 10 points)." Thus, I know the odds get worse with every year I wait to finally be eligible.

I have a hard time seeing who really benefits from this besides the state that gets 10 years of point money from people before they can even hope for a tag.

I would tweak your idea to something like this:

no new points will be issued from here forward, under any circumstance. Start year 1 with a random/pref hybrid draw that starts at 10/90 and increases on the random side 2-4% per year. It "cheapens" people's points but at a gradual rate, allows people room to burn points and get out to join the growing random side, and may even encourage it. Eventually it will shift to 100% random and any remaining points anyone is holding die or maybe you leave a point pool of 20% until the point burners get their chance to burn. Different options.

That might work. Not opposed. Also not certain trading 10.0 point hunters for 10+ hunters is bad. A random draw at 10 points for higher demand tags still gives everyone who would have been 10+ a chance.

 

[utah400elk]

I think they should simply leave them alone. If you don’t like the system in place…simply apply in a different state.

 

[gallagher71]

And in the process drive up the lower points tags bc an exponentially larger pool hits max points and realize their odds are dropping at an exponential rate for the high point tag. And they go and apply for the low point or general tag thus driving all tags to be a 10 year wait. Complete corrupt money grab.

Just the OP and all of the people who weren't around when point systems started.

Do point systems suck yes they do and they suck because I wasn't around to buy points at the bottom level. So instead of complaining about it why don't you do what you can and hunt what you can now?

Because in 10 year when you have enough points to even have a chance in your dream world you could've done a handful of really fun things in the mountains that you won't be able to now. Because as mentioned demand isn't going away and supply isn't going up.

Seems to me like you are only happy with a "glory tag" instead of going out and enjoying hunting for more than the potential of killing a large antlered animal.

I would personally rather hunt 7 general tags than wait 10 years to potentially hunt 1 "glory tag".

Agreed. I'm content with hunting every year. Because of this, my participation is limited to three states. It's less about budget than it is about value. However, if I could participate elsewhere where I believed I would get to use points, I'd buy. I'm not opposed to funding fish and wildlife. It's a far better investment than my state's general fund where I send too much for too little already.