A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[ImBillT]

I'm seeing nothing in the original topic of this post that tells me the lives of little children would be saved, but keep telling yourself that, and that some feel good, we gotta do something laws are going to help. There's ridiculous quantities of guns out there now, and if somebody wants one, they're gonna get it, unless something massive happens.

China had at least one man go into a school and hack up kids with a machete. Guns don’t create evil, and removing them prevents nothing.

The very first murder involved the first generation of humans BORN on the earth and was committed with a rock. Guns aren’t the problem, and never have been.

 

[ImBillT]

Nationwide, probably not. But in areas with high rates of gang violence, I'd bet it's a lot higher than you'd like to think.

Mass incarceration and children’s outcomes: Criminal justice policy is education policy

Parental incarceration leads to an array of cognitive and noncognitive outcomes known to affect children’s performance in school. Therefore, the discriminatory incarceration of African American parents makes an important contribution to the racial achievement gap. Educators hoping to narrow the...

www.epi.org

I’m supposed to believe that if these guys were out of prison they would A) attempt to be a father, and B) not teach their children to commit crime?

Children needing fathers in the home is a not a reason to keep or let criminals out of prison.

 

[406dn]

Looks like you were contradicted.

Partially, they can't have any number of things including guns when former president Trump speaks.

 

[406dn]

The framers would ask why the school staff wasn’t allowed to bear arms, and why anyone thought they could depend on government for personal protection.

Don't get too far out on your limb. Taken quite literally you are dismantling the law enforcement sector of government. If I can't depend on them, why the hell should I be paying for them? And no... I am not for defunding the police.

The defense expenditures for the federal government total half of every dollar spent. Your logic suggests that is money poorly spent.

Finally, the typical elementary school teacher is not a gun crank. So should she wear body armor every day in class? Since most of the shooters are using a semiautomatic rifle, she is at a significant disadvantage if she uses a pistol. How should her gun be stored? On her person, at the ready? If not, she is dead a second after he enters the room.

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

New thought, give teachers one of these, but in 20 gauge loaded with some #4 lead shot. Store it under the desk or on the wall with a biometric lock. They can grab that sucker and start spraying and praying. Maybe a couple extra mags for backup if he/she has to chase multiple perps. *sarcasm* but also, would make for a great scene in a movie lol.

I am a fan of allowing teachers to carry if they want to. And I'd be fan of an additional level of license to carry in schools if that would give some comfort to people (such as we have here in TN for open carry).

 

[ImBillT]

Partially, they can't have any number of things including guns when former president Trump speaks.

And that’s the picture you tried to paint with your comment?

 

[ImBillT]

Don't get too far out on your limb. Taken quite literally you are dismantling the law enforcement sector of government. If I can't depend on them, why the hell should I be paying for them? And no... I am not for defunding the police.

The defense expenditures for the federal government total half of every dollar spent. Your logic suggests that is money poorly spent.

Finally, the typical elementary school teacher is not a gun crank. So should she wear body armor every day in class? Since most of the shooters are using a semiautomatic rifle, she is at a significant disadvantage if she uses a pistol. How should her gun be stored? On her person, at the ready? If not, she is dead a second after he enters the room.

Saying that you can’t depend on police for your personal protection doesn’t come remotely close to dismantling law enforcement. Not even close. Police CANT come save everyone. That’s not how law enforcement works. The VAST majority of law enforcement occurs AFTER the crime has been committed. That’s how it works.

By the way, law enforcement has a TERRIBLE record when it comes to mass shootings.

You obviously don’t know much about teachers. TX state law leaves staff carry up to individual districts. Some local districts in my area allow staff to carry, and have signs out front stating that their staff is armed. The district my wife works for does not allow it, but has discussed it. She has many friends of both sexes who have conceal carry permits and who carry outside of school, and who want to carry in school. She has other friends who do not have a permit, but who would get one if they were allowed to carry in school. In her school I would say it is between 60/30 and 40/60 on how many would like to carry, OR would like to know that someone else was carrying. Does every school district have this breakdown? No. But I bet the most liberal school in the most liberal district has at least one teacher that would prefer to carry.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Like Buzz said, just keep building caskets.

 

[The Hedgehog]

China had at least one man go into a school and hack up kids with a machete. Guns don’t create evil, and removing them prevents nothing.

The very first murder involved the first generation of humans BORN on the earth and was committed with a rock. Guns aren’t the problem, and never have been.

Just to be clear, guns, especially some types make it way way easier to do, especially given how many are just out there. So don't kid yourself that it isn't "a problem". To "make a difference" would take way way way more than some more inconvenience laws that somebody pushing another agenda and support suggests. Just my opinion.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Just to be clear, guns, especially some types make it way way easier to do, especially given how many are just out there. So don't kid yourself that it isn't "a problem". To "make a difference" would take way way way more than some more inconvenience laws that somebody pushing another agenda and support suggests. Just my opinion.

To your point...

17.7MM modern sporting rifles out there
650,000 is the number given for the Australia buyback... so just ARs would be 27x the size of that...

I couldn't find a number for handguns with a 15rnd capacity but I bet it's something like 20-30 million.

 

[ImBillT]

Just to be clear, guns, especially some types make it way way easier to do, especially given how many are just out there. So don't kid yourself that it isn't "a problem". To "make a difference" would take way way way more than some more inconvenience laws that somebody pushing another agenda and support suggests. Just my opinion.

I’m not convinced that a crazy person with a claymore sword in an elementary school where no one is armed, and with a police force armed with batons(think Great Britain) is going to fail to kill 21 or more. I am convinced that if all guns disappeared completely, that the physically weaker people in our society would be victimized by the stronger people at an even higher rate.

 

[The Hedgehog]

I’m not convinced that a crazy person with a claymore sword in an elementary school where no one is armed, and with a police force armed with batons(think Great Britain) is going to fail to kill 21 or more. I am convinced that if all guns disappeared completely, that the physically weaker people in our society would be victimized by the stronger people at an even higher rate.

I'm not for any gun control, but let's step into reality.

If you were planning to kill yourself? What would be the easiest way to to do it?
If you were a crazy bastard and wanted to take out a lot with you, what would be the easiest way to do it?

Multiple choice quiz:
1) buy a sword and take some on-line swashbuckling/seppuku tutorials
2) buy some fertilizer and learn about making truck bombs
3) put a heavy duty bumper on your truck and look for a big crowd along a road
4) reach into yours or somebody else's gun safe

 

[elkduds]

I am convinced that if all guns disappeared completely, that the physically weaker people in our society would be victimized by the stronger people at an even higher rate.

Is that the goal? In reading this well considered and well argued thread, I got no sense that elimination of guns was a point of consideration. I bring it up because including the most extreme and opposed views on each end of the spectrum makes negotiation and agreement less likely. For better or worse, our most successful legislations roll down the middle. Arguing for the extremes is arguing against agreement and compromise. Clearly that is the absolutist goal of some advocates. Personally I think and believe there is compromise available that will equally dissatisfy both ends of the spectrum, and better serve the 85% of Americans who are < 1 standard deviation above or below the middle of the bell curve.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I’m not convinced that a crazy person with a claymore sword in an elementary school where no one is armed, and with a police force armed with batons(think Great Britain) is going to fail to kill 21 or more. I am convinced that if all guns disappeared completely, that the physically weaker people in our society would be victimized by the stronger people at an even higher rate.

How many functional swords are in the US? Not Sword like objects, but carbon steel with a full tang... 300,000?

Also until 2019 it was illegal to own a switch blade in Montana... there are actually a lot of laws about knives/swords.

 

[406dn]

You obviously don’t know much about teachers.

Possibly, In my extended family, an uncle was a superintendent of a school district. A cousin is married to a retired school principal. Two other cousins made a career of teaching. A niece is a young teacher working with special needs kids. My wife worked as support staff in our local school district.

Yep it's possible that I don't know much about them. It's also possible you don't know much about them either.

 

[ImBillT]

How many functional swords are in the US? Not Sword like objects, but carbon steel with a full tang... 300,000?

Also until 2019 it was illegal to own a switch blade in Montana... there are actually a lot of laws about knives/swords.

How many would there be with no guns? Machete? They sell those at hardware stores. I used to use one to chop sod when I laid sod. Chainsaw anyone? Slingblade? Yoyo? The point is that you cannot legislate away the means by which killing school children can be accomplished by a whack job bent on murder. You can however allow people to protect themselves if they so chose.

In most places in most states this is allowed. For the most part mass shootings have not occurred in such places. In TX, allowing teachers to carry is up to the district. Some districts allow it. Some districts ENCOURAGE IT. My wife’s district does not currently allow it. My guess is that Uvalde does not allow it.

 

[dgc1963]

I think this has a lot more to do with it than guns we have failed to keep tight family values in this country .Kids with no Dads,phones and video games for baby sitters of 10 yr olds ,parents to busy on their own phone to interact with their kids
Some of my best memories of my time with my father was fishing for trout and blue gills,hitting golf balls at the range, and watching Abbot and Costello before church on Sunday morning
Yea I just dated myself but still true

 

[ImBillT]

Possibly, In my extended family, an uncle was a superintendent of a school district. A cousin is married to a retired school principal. Two other cousins made a career of teaching. A niece is a young teacher working with special needs kids. My wife worked as support staff in our local school district.

Yep it's possible that I don't know anything about them. It's also possible you don't know much about them either.

And you’re telling me that none of those people you are related to knows a person in their school that wants teachers to be allowed to carry? I don’t by it for a second. A substantial number of school staff where my wife teaches either wants to carry personally, or wants it to be allowed. My wife does not want to carry personally. My wife does wish that some of the teachers she works with, who already carry outside of school, were allowed to carry at school. Last year when her district was discussing it, she said that more teachers she talked about it with wanted it to be allowed than didn’t. No she didn’t talk to everyone, and no that’s not a perfect poll, but the idea that teachers don’t want armed people in their school is flat wrong. Some do, some don’t. Just like anything else. Bearing arms is a constitutional right, and the fact that kids are around is not a good reason to suspend that right. In fact it’s a good reason to allow it.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

How many would there be with no guns? Machete? They sell those at hardware stores. I used to use one to chop sod when I laid sod. Chainsaw anyone? Slingblade? Yoyo? The point is that you cannot legislate away the means by which killing school children can be accomplished by a whack job bent on murder. You can however allow people to protect themselves if they so chose.

In most places in most states this is allowed. For the most part mass shootings have not occurred in such places. In TX, allowing teachers to carry is up to the district. Some districts allow it. Some districts ENCOURAGE IT. My wife’s district does not currently allow it. My guess is that Uvalde does not allow it.

There are a lot of reasons for the 2A and for firearm ownership, I am not making any argument to say that firearms or even a class of firearms should be illegal.

But countries with less firearms per capita have way fewer gun homicides. There have been knife, bomb, truck etc attacks in those countries, but it’s not even close to the same scale.

 

[406dn]

And you’re telling me that none of those people you are related to knows a person in their school that wants teachers to be allowed to carry? I don’t by it for a second. A substantial number of school staff where my wife teaches either wants to carry personally, or wants it to be allowed. My wife does not want to carry personally. My wife does wish that some of the teachers she works with, who already carry outside of school, were allowed to carry at school. Last year when her district was discussing it, she said that more teachers she talked about it with wanted it to be allowed than didn’t. No she didn’t talk to everyone, and no that’s not a perfect poll, but that teachers don’t want armed people in their school is flat wrong. Some do, some don’t. Just like anything else. Bearing arms is a constitutional right, and the fact that kids are around is not a good reason to suspend that right. In fact it’s a good reason to allow it.

I don't think I said that. It would be helpful if you tried not to assume things that I don't post.

I don't buy the good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun argument. Because it depends, on the circumstances. In the last two shootings both killers showed up with a semiautomatic rifle while wearing some sort of body armor. A teacher with a semiautomatic pistol tucked into a holster, with their mind on teaching students does not have the odds stacked favorably when a killer clothed in body armor bursts through the door with their rifle ready to kill. Not only is she or he slower on the draw, they are seriously outgunned.

In the killings in Buffalo, the grocery store had an armed security guard. He engaged the killer. His pistol was not up to the task of taking out a killer suited in body armor, carrying a semiautomatic rifle. That man was the shooter's first victim.