Why do you want to compare a .30 caliber varmint bullet to a so called premium bullet in .243? Stuff the .30-06 with a 125 grain Accubond for a better comparison. Using a varmint bullet in the larger cartridge seems to make your comparison lean towards the lighter cartridge. Bigger is better when hunting elk. mtmuley
.243 for elk
- Thread starter T Bone
- Start date
T Bone
Well-known member
BuzzH
Well-known member
I've changed my stance on what is really needed for killing elk over the years. For many years I shot a 30/06, killed a pile of elk with one. Shot a pile more with a .338. Shot a pile more with a 7 RM...along the way I killed a few with a .243, 300 Win.
The ONE thing that has leveled the playing field more than anything else, in paricular with sub 30 caliber rounds, is BULLETS. The host of good bullets on the market these days has made elk rifles/cartridges out of many that were deemed "too light" not that many years ago, mainly due to poor selection of bullets.
When I started hunting in 1979, there wasnt barnes x, there wasnt accubonds, swift a-frames, many smaller calibers didnt even have partitions available.
Old school thinking dies hard...I'm probably more bull-headed than anyone when it comes to what I feel an elk rifle should be...and why I shot the .338 exclusively for many years. That opinion was based off my experiences with remington core-lok bullets, thin jacketed federal factory ammo, sierra and speer soft points, etc.
The bullet selection now is incredible, and anyone that still believes a 300 magnum or 338 is needed to reliably kill elk is living in the past, the very definition of an anachronism. I've changed my mind, based on experience with smaller caliber rifles on all sorts of game, and also based on the vast improvement and availability of quality bullets.
The .243, despite what many claim on here, is an adequate elk round...assuming the nut behind the trigger understands bullet selection is the "key", and that they can reliably hit what they're aiming at, within the realm of sane hunting ranges...and thats well past 100 yards.
IMO, elk hunters would be much better served if they spent more time scouting elk, learning how to hunt elk, and accurately shooting their rifles than getting bogged down in the minutia of cartridge selection.
Its also my experience that rifles that are fun to shoot...they get shot a lot more. The more comfortable a person is with a rifle, the better shot you're likely to make on an animal when the chips are down.
I find very, very, very few casual hunters that can shoot a .338 better than they can a 25/06, 7-08, or 243. Go to the rifle range before elk season...HOLY CHIT! Its a joke, guys shooting 300 RUM's, 300 wby, 300 winmags, 338 UM's, etc. who can hardly stay on paper with them at 100 yards. Flinching, adjusting scopes after ever shot. I'm sure they were told by someone that you need a cannon for elk. I had a guy this year at the range, who couldnt shoot his 300 winchester for chit, look at my target I shot with my 7-08 and tell me, "well, its accurate, no question, but I wouldnt hunt elk with it"...OK. But, he found his 300 WM "sighted in" and "good to go" with a target that looked more like a 30 caliber turkey pattern experiment gone wrong than a rifle target.
IMO, most elk hunters are in way over their heads with the rifles they use to shoot at elk, and that, likely results in more wounded and lost animals than from a guy that knows his "too small" or "too light" rifle,and shoots it well.
The 3 most important things to killing any animal is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.
The ONE thing that has leveled the playing field more than anything else, in paricular with sub 30 caliber rounds, is BULLETS. The host of good bullets on the market these days has made elk rifles/cartridges out of many that were deemed "too light" not that many years ago, mainly due to poor selection of bullets.
When I started hunting in 1979, there wasnt barnes x, there wasnt accubonds, swift a-frames, many smaller calibers didnt even have partitions available.
Old school thinking dies hard...I'm probably more bull-headed than anyone when it comes to what I feel an elk rifle should be...and why I shot the .338 exclusively for many years. That opinion was based off my experiences with remington core-lok bullets, thin jacketed federal factory ammo, sierra and speer soft points, etc.
The bullet selection now is incredible, and anyone that still believes a 300 magnum or 338 is needed to reliably kill elk is living in the past, the very definition of an anachronism. I've changed my mind, based on experience with smaller caliber rifles on all sorts of game, and also based on the vast improvement and availability of quality bullets.
The .243, despite what many claim on here, is an adequate elk round...assuming the nut behind the trigger understands bullet selection is the "key", and that they can reliably hit what they're aiming at, within the realm of sane hunting ranges...and thats well past 100 yards.
IMO, elk hunters would be much better served if they spent more time scouting elk, learning how to hunt elk, and accurately shooting their rifles than getting bogged down in the minutia of cartridge selection.
Its also my experience that rifles that are fun to shoot...they get shot a lot more. The more comfortable a person is with a rifle, the better shot you're likely to make on an animal when the chips are down.
I find very, very, very few casual hunters that can shoot a .338 better than they can a 25/06, 7-08, or 243. Go to the rifle range before elk season...HOLY CHIT! Its a joke, guys shooting 300 RUM's, 300 wby, 300 winmags, 338 UM's, etc. who can hardly stay on paper with them at 100 yards. Flinching, adjusting scopes after ever shot. I'm sure they were told by someone that you need a cannon for elk. I had a guy this year at the range, who couldnt shoot his 300 winchester for chit, look at my target I shot with my 7-08 and tell me, "well, its accurate, no question, but I wouldnt hunt elk with it"...OK. But, he found his 300 WM "sighted in" and "good to go" with a target that looked more like a 30 caliber turkey pattern experiment gone wrong than a rifle target.
IMO, most elk hunters are in way over their heads with the rifles they use to shoot at elk, and that, likely results in more wounded and lost animals than from a guy that knows his "too small" or "too light" rifle,and shoots it well.
The 3 most important things to killing any animal is shot placement, shot placement, and shot placement.
Last edited:
MKotur325
New member
Elk are a tough critter, but ultimately what kills most effectively IMHO is a well placed shot from a caliber delivering a bullet capable of consistently reaching the vital organs and carrying sufficient energy at that point to puncture both lungs. If you feel that your caliber is capable of doing that in any situation you would shoot in, Is there sense in shooting something significantly larger?
I know I've said this on here before. IMO an ideal Elk Cartridge/bullet combination should utilize a Bullet with a Sectional Density of .25 or higher, of good construction (more important on the smaller caliber side) Fast enough to maintain IMO 1800FPS at longest expected range, and a Muzzle velocity IMO not to exceed 3100FPS. So, the ultimate question... Does the .243 fit my criteria? Not with 100Gr slugs. If you are comfortable with Bergers, the 105gr and 115gr Bergers will fit into this, but require faster twists than are on factory rifles.
For ME Sectional Density is more important than energy for terminal performance. SD is a ratio of the weight of the bullet to the diameter. SD= (weight of bullet in grains/7000)/(diameter of bullet in inches, squared). Comparative penetration can be evaluated for Solids in SD and velocity. For expanding bullets, it's even more important, because even if the bullet looses no weight, it will likely double in diameter increasing the resistance to penetration. Beyond that... SD is a key factor in determining BC.
I know I've said this on here before. IMO an ideal Elk Cartridge/bullet combination should utilize a Bullet with a Sectional Density of .25 or higher, of good construction (more important on the smaller caliber side) Fast enough to maintain IMO 1800FPS at longest expected range, and a Muzzle velocity IMO not to exceed 3100FPS. So, the ultimate question... Does the .243 fit my criteria? Not with 100Gr slugs. If you are comfortable with Bergers, the 105gr and 115gr Bergers will fit into this, but require faster twists than are on factory rifles.
For ME Sectional Density is more important than energy for terminal performance. SD is a ratio of the weight of the bullet to the diameter. SD= (weight of bullet in grains/7000)/(diameter of bullet in inches, squared). Comparative penetration can be evaluated for Solids in SD and velocity. For expanding bullets, it's even more important, because even if the bullet looses no weight, it will likely double in diameter increasing the resistance to penetration. Beyond that... SD is a key factor in determining BC.
ida homer
Well-known member
I see what you are saying. But your comparing apples to oranges. That example isn't even really applicable man. I don't know very many people that would hunt with a 125gr target bullet if they are going to shoot a 30-06. I'd suspect that those aren't even that available otc. Your weekend warrior that goes out once a year picks up a box of core lokt 165 grain 30-06 bullets, or bigger even to prove their manliness.
I completely agree that bullet construction is one of the most important factors. I definitely don't think you need a cannon to shoot elk at all. And yes, accuracy is by far the most important factor.
I shot my buck and my bull last year with a 110gr accubond out of my 25-06 and it performed perfectly. BUT, I won't shoot that load at an elk past 400 yards because chit does happen and there sometimes is wind in that 3rd canyon over between you and the bull that you didn't dope correctly. Sometimes that bullet WILL drift into the shoulder bone. This is where I'd rather have a bigger, BUT STILL WELL BUILT bullet. NOT a 125 grain 30 caliber varmint bullet.
Imagine a 12 year old with buck fever shooting at his first elk with a 243 at 400 yards... things rarely go as smoothly in the field as they do at the range. What if (I mean WHEN) he misses his point of aim forward by 3 inches (less than 1moa, nothing to be concerned about at the range at that distance) and hits that shoulder on a big bull. You will still probably be able to track down that bull and finish him, but again, why push the bare min?
Lets not forget we are talking about the OP's intended shooter, a young first time elk hunter, NOT a seasoned vet like BuzzH or some of you other dudes that have killed dozens of elk and probably haven't gotten buck fever for 30 years. 1_pointer and Buzz, re-read the OP's first post and this paragraph twice.
BuzzH
Well-known member
A 100 grain .243 partition is not capable of reliably reaching an elks vital organs?
OK.
OK.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I've read the OP's post a few times...
Thats why I tried to make the case for a .243.
Tbone was concerned about recoil sensitivity. Thats a responsible guy that understands and has legitimate concerns. The foundation that you create with young hunters is going to make or break their desire to hunt in the future. Personally, I would have used the .243 rather than the 7-08 for someone that is recoil sensitive. But, I dont know the full situation, and IME, most kids are a little tougher than their parents think.
AGAIN, I'd much rather a young hunter ENJOY shooting a rifle, become effective with it, than having them shooting something they arent comfortable with. Recoil to me isnt that big of an issue NOW, but I can tell you that when I was 12 I found no fun in shooting a 30/06. I currently find a lot less fun in shooting my .338 than my 6mm, 7-08, or .22-250.
Also, any parent that is allowing a youngster with buck fever (buck fever doesnt cure itself because you're holding a larger caliber rifle), to shoot 400 yards at bull elk...with any weapon, is failing as a hunting mentor. A true hunting mentor doesnt set a young hunter up for failure, they set them up for success. Thats means teaching them to shoot with a rifle they can handle, creating as controlled of a siuation as possible for their first few kills, teaching them about shot placement, teaching them that there are limits to one shooting abilities, proper stalking, patience, letting them know its OK to let an animal walk you arent sure you can kill effectively, etc. etc. etc.
Discipline, hunting skills, understanding consequences of pulling the trigger, knowing ones limits,...thats what needs to be taught. Not the need for Daddy-O to fuel his own ego by bragging how their kid shot their first bull at 500 yards with a 338 ultra-mag.
YMMV...
ida homer
Well-known member
ONCE AGAIN, did I say that? Can you quote me either?
I said I'd RATHER have a youth shooting a little bigger bullet when things don't go as planned. My post wasn't that difficult to decipher, that is, if you even read it. You and 1_pointer sure seem to mis-read or misquote often.
ida homer
Well-known member
I said a little bigger bullet if the shot is past 150 yards. Like a 7mm-08 or 25-06. I'll repeat myself, for the 5th time, I think a 243 is fine for limited ranges for a youth. But not at 400+ yards IMO, to each his own. This is going no where because you fellas can't read correctly and bring up situations and scenarios that don't even make sense, like comparing a tiny 30 caliber varmint bullet that no one uses to shoot at elk versus a well constructed bonded elk bullet.
MKotur325
New member
Buzz,
Not what I'm trying to say, what I said is that it doesn't fit my criteria for an IDEAL Elk Cartridge(not a capable cartridge) and I'm not saying the criteria are perfect. 100gr SD in 6mm is .242. That is certainly close. Its basically the same SD as a 165Gr in .308" (.248), or a 140 gr in 7mm (.247). But My criteria are skewed due to my affinity for Heavy, Higher BC slugs... I wouldn't quite consider it an Ideal elk cartridge. Is it capable? Yes. Would I use it personally? If it was the only rifle I had with me, absolutely; but it wouldn't be the first rifle in the truck when leaving on an Elk hunt. I would rather sacrifice a bit of Muzzle Velocity and bump up weight, Increase BC, Increase SD and decrease Wind deflection. I am more confident with shot placement in 10+ MPH winds (which is around 50% of my big game hunting) with a bullet that will deflect less.
And, By the Way: You are absolutely Correct about new bullet Construction. The advancements in Controlling expansion and Weight Retention greatly increased the availability of Quality Elk Bullets.
And I agree that a smaller caliber, better constructed bullet will carry equivalent or superior terminal performance to traditional cup and core bullet designs. I completely agree that you have to be able to control and shoot accurately any rifle you plan on hunting elk with. Don't get me wrong, Shot placement is Absolutely Crucial to success on any elk hunt. As is Shot Selection, and Bullet performance. My .308 is most accurate with 175gr Sierra MatchKings. They are the load I am most likely to Guarantee shot placement with at any range, but are known for inconsistent terminal characteristics. I change to 180gr Partitions for hunting; because with the partition I can be sure of the terminal performance of the slug to 400yds.
MKotur325
New member
TW... For the Record... I believe he was quoting me from Post #64. It could have been implied from that post.
idahofishnhunt
Well-known member
I won't get into the ballistics because that has been covered pretty well. I can say though that when we are at the range I see quite a few people come and go with their magnums, maybe shooting half a box. A few times I swung the spotter over to their paper to see their shooting and was amazed to see their groupings, I guess a 6-inch group at 200 yards must be impressive to them, but not to me. We usually go through at least 100 rounds when we are out there, and my 13-yr old daughters shoulder doesn't get sore at all shooting her 7mm-08 with 140 accubonds at 2,863fps. I think recoil pads have come a long ways since our day of shooting as well, and that really helps out too. My next daughter is turning 12 in a few months, and she is smaller in frame so I'll be going through the same thing. Starting them off on a lesser load and building up by hunting season seems like pretty good common sense to me. I think pretty much everywhere I've read the 7-08 has been the go to gun for youths, daughters, and wives because of it's ability to get the job done without beating the person up doing it. I went with the same caliber after shooting my daughters quite a bit and noticing how much more shooting and how much more accuracy I could get out of it when my shoulder wasn't getting beat up. Now it's a lot of enjoyment for us to go spend time together shooting. Definitely find something you can can do all your hunting with, but also something that is enjoyable to go out and shoot together too. Don't forget the fun factor in all this.
HSi-ESi
Well-known member
I think that we all agree that the .243 is on the low end for elk cartridges. But I'm in BuzzH's camp on this little debate - and here's why.
Think about the entire hunting experience for the youngster. This includes helping load ammo, picking out hunting clothes, going to the range (on a consistent basis over the next 9-10 months), animal anatomy, hunting strategy, etc. I think that too much focus is placed into the hunting cartridge. The focus should be on the education of the hunter.
If the kid doesn't like shooting a specific caliber (or even gun, since fit contributes to how much recoil is felt) - then shooting sessions at the range aren't going to be any fun.
Every kid is different. Over the course of education - you might find that the kid can place great groups with a specific gun but not so much with other guns. The kid will have confidence in that gun and want to shoot it more. That's the one you want to use.
If the gun is of lighter caliber - then AS A MENTOR - it's your role to put the kid in the best spot to achieve success. This may mean passing on shots that a larger caliber could handle. There's nothing wrong with that - it's part of hunting and teaches valuable lessons.
There's so much more to hunting than what caliber to use. Focus on that and it'll be a fun experience for the kids.
Think about the entire hunting experience for the youngster. This includes helping load ammo, picking out hunting clothes, going to the range (on a consistent basis over the next 9-10 months), animal anatomy, hunting strategy, etc. I think that too much focus is placed into the hunting cartridge. The focus should be on the education of the hunter.
If the kid doesn't like shooting a specific caliber (or even gun, since fit contributes to how much recoil is felt) - then shooting sessions at the range aren't going to be any fun.
Every kid is different. Over the course of education - you might find that the kid can place great groups with a specific gun but not so much with other guns. The kid will have confidence in that gun and want to shoot it more. That's the one you want to use.
If the gun is of lighter caliber - then AS A MENTOR - it's your role to put the kid in the best spot to achieve success. This may mean passing on shots that a larger caliber could handle. There's nothing wrong with that - it's part of hunting and teaches valuable lessons.
There's so much more to hunting than what caliber to use. Focus on that and it'll be a fun experience for the kids.
MKotur325
New member
Definitely a valid Point. As a hunter who remembers pacing around the woods with a youth rifle... It was really frustrating for me the few times I was told I couldn't shoot because My dad wasn't comfortable with me taking the shot. I ran a 7-08, and the shots my first few years were fairly conservative. It definitely had an effect on how I hunt now. That being said, as someone who will be helping new hunters in the next year or two, I would prefer to limit the number of times that we have to pass on critters for marginal shots. Took one of these boys out in the field this fall He was even frustrated that we couldn't shoot does, I don't want to discourage them by restricting more shot options than needed. I agree with what's been stated above. For a balance of Recoil, terminal performance, Factory ammo availability, and factory rifle availability the 7-08 is IMO the Go To Youth Caliber, should Elk be on the Menu.
Dinkshooter
Well-known member
hey i resemble that remark.
idahofishnhunt
Well-known member
Thata boy...Beast Mode!
2rocky
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2010
- Messages
- 4,982
So to Summarize 4 pages here and 2569 pages elsewhere on the internet....
Will a .243 kill an elk .... YES
Is a .243 an elk cartridge ... NO
Have elk been killed with a .243 ... YES
Should I take my .243 elk hunting ... MAYBE
Will a .243 kill an elk .... YES
Is a .243 an elk cartridge ... NO
Have elk been killed with a .243 ... YES
Should I take my .243 elk hunting ... MAYBE
some of these points are well taken,at least by me,but!!!!!!there is such a thing as to light a round to do the job in a ethical manner,just like there is such thing as too large a round for the job,case in point,50-cal BMG,it will kill anything on the planet,anything that bleeds that is,is it a good elk round?
NO.
why not?because you would destroy a lot of meat,im only using this example to make a point,and my point is the 243 round is not a good elk killing round,and this is my own opinion,but as you can tell by the comments on this subject,a lot of other hunters are trying to convey the same message.
just my 2 cents.:hump:
