UNIONS .. YEH ? or NEY ?

[Moosie]

And Why... I'm a Western boy and don't work for or never have worked for one. Not saying it's a Waste, But jsut wondering if it's worth it ?

I think Someone on here is a Member of one if I remember right, Maybe they can Enlighten those of us in the Dark ?

 

[dgibson]

He he...I bet old YH is lurking about just DYING to see what is said about them, ready to pounce like the cheetah upon his unsuspecting prey.

I will only answer insofar as to say that I think labor unions were necessary and noble in purpose when they were created. I will also say that there are all kinds of unions.

 

[Moosie]

I'll go out on a Limb and Say I think they aren't any good, As far as I know, You pay union dues every month for ?!?!?

Change my mind Yook..

 

[pawclaws]

They are an unwarranted expense to the employer, employee, and customer. Once upon a time they did an excellent job of lining the pockets of organized crime; but now drugs do a much better job. Politicians still appreciate them because anyone sltupid enough to join one is also stupid enough to vote for whoever the union leaders tell them to!

Phillip P. Foreman
Former Treasurer AFGE

 

[1_pointer]

I liken them to Affirmative Action. At one time society demanded that they be created, but I feel both have outlived their usefullness. Especially in as a litigious society that we now find ourselves.

 

[cjcj]

There are good and bad unions, they were needed badly when the companies treated employees poorly, they also kept non-union wages high or reasonable because of the union threat, they still have their place and are needed in some circumstances, but most major respectable corporations have human resources dept. who try to apply a set of standard rules to all workers [wages,attendance,sick leave, vacation,etc.] so in those cases they are not needed anymore, but who knows it could change or shift back to where the strength in numbers[unions] are needed to keep things in balance.

 

[Racksup]

I don't care for them myslef. My uncle and father were both IBEW and it always drove me crazy that every election year they got a mailer telling them who to vote for. Also, if they were on furlow (sp?), they had a reduced chance of getting placed if they had taken a non-union job to put food on the table.

Unions are unecessary in modern life. They may have been needed in the early days, but not anymore.

 

[Nut]

I come from a long line of union workers.(Coal MIners Union mainly and they wasnt stupid

)

In fact I was a Teamster for 11 years. (Hoffa wears cement shoes,you want to join him?

)

The Teamsters mainly just took my monthly dues for little and no service. (Although it was nice to have a set of rules that didn't change from day to day

)

Union membership is declining as the manufacturing corporations ship the jobs overseas. So certain unions will die off in the near future.

The unions that survive will be mainly for public sector jobs like policemen,fire fighters,teachers,etc.(Guess they are stupid also

)

But I work in non-union job shops (My late Aunt called me a scab for doing that) where skill is the main requirement for your low ass wage and job insecurity.

 

[MarlandS]

My wife is UAW and every one of those people NEED union protection to keep their jobs although most could still work under some "hire the handicapped" program or another.

Oh gee, let's give 2 hours of our pay a month so a group of people can NOT do the job they got hired to do and so they can spend all their time protecting those who can't follow orders and get fired.

 

[Yukon Hunter]

ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME!?!?!?!?!?!?!
1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10... It ain't working, Griz!!!!!
As I'm a wee bit pressed for time, I'll respond to all the Union-busting assholes tomorrow.
But I can't leave without making one small point... whether you belong to a Union or not, your lifestyle that you now enjoy is a DIRECT result of the Unions. The folks that had the balls to step up to the plate and say screw you, we're not working in this dump for these slave wages are why North America has the standard of living it does. Don't like it? Head south. Hey, cjcj, any idea why all them people are swimmin' the Rio Grande?
11...12...13...14...

 

[Moosie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> your lifestyle that you now enjoy is a DIRECT result of the Unions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure it had alot to do with it.. But why are they needed now ? I wasn't trying to BUST on them.. I just don't understand it ?!?! I hear in the past it was a great way to fund the "LOBYIST", if you will, and peoplllle needed people really fighting for them...I've never been a part of them and don't know what they do now ?

 

[FLIPPER]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>whether you belong to a Union or not, your lifestyle that you now enjoy is a DIRECT result of the Unions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you remove the word "enjoy" from that quote...I completely agree.

High inflation...$8000.00 vehicles that cost $45,000.00...yep...a "DIRECT" result of Unions

 

[JoseCuervo]

The purpose of Unions is to artificially restrict Supply (ie..workers) in order to increase the price paid for those workers, for a given level of Demand. If not for the Union, more people could work, and the price paid for the workers would decrease.

Right now, probably the best Union around is the Longshoreman's Union on the West Coast. Remember a year ago, when they were able to threaten Christmas by striking the Container Ports? We need guys pushing paper at a Container Yard making $100k per year...

If it were not for the Unions, we would not have waitresses on airplanes (oops, I mean Flight Attendents) that make more than the school teachers and nurses.

(Hurry, quick, lock the topic before Yuke comes back...

)

 

[Moosie]

NOW.. Is Y.H. the only Union Guy ?

 

[brushy]

I for one, prefer to LOOK for the union lable. i prefer to buy American rather than Chinese, Honk Kong, Taiwan or Korea. American jobs ya know,done by American people, living in America. It was not that long ago that there sweat shops here in America, without the Unions they might still be here.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Is this really a "Sportsman's Issue"?

 

[Chambo]

May 30, 2003 -- Professor M. Schiller: Unions Destroy America

As unnatural monopolies of labor resources, unions have become one of the single largest sources of problems in America today. Where once their not-so-subtle methods of prehistoric intimidation remained largely localized, they now hold entire regions, if not the entire country, hostage with demands so outrageous that even Saddam Hussein would blush. Their coercively antiquated labor practices promote inefficiency that impedes economic growth with high wages and low productivity thus resulting in higher unemployment and inflation rates.
With wages 26% higher than their non-union counterparts, one would come to expect a higher level of productivity. The fact remains, however, that union workers, while paid more, are actually less productive, not only in terms of capital resources expended but by most any other measure, as well. In a perfectly competitive labor market where the equilibrium point of supply and demand is allowed to occur naturally without the threat of sabotage, the roughly $12 billion that union workers are collectively paid each week could provide jobs for another 4.2 million people (so much for the little guy, I guess, whose cause they falsely claim to champion). Not only would this cut the unemployment rate in half, from 6.0% to 3.1%, but the transactions velocity of money would increase as more of this $12 billion would circulate throughout the economy each week, "a good thing" as Martha is fond of saying. Economists have estimated that for every 10% increase in wages unions receive, the other 87% of the working population has its wage rates reduced by some 4 percent. This unjust enrichment amounts to nothing more than a redistribution of wealth not as the result of any noted level of achievement or competency, but rather through extortion whereby their monopolistic rent-seeking behavior comes at the expense of society in the guise of higher costs and increased inflation.

Okun's Law states that for every percentage point that the actual rate of unemployment is above the natural rate of unemployment, society loses two percent in potential GDP. With an economy valued at over $10.4 trillion, and assuming an NRU of 4.5%, the existence of unions is costing us over $151 billion. Let's see, what can $151 billion buy these days? Well, for starters, you can finance the People’s Republic of California, or the smallest twenty-two states collectively, for one year. You can also run New York City, whose budget alone is larger than 44 individual states, for 32 years. Europe has long suffered with high unemployment and low productivity because of restrictive covenants in labor union contracts that severely limit firings thus discouraging firms from employing workers.

With humble beginnings founded on once noble intentions, unions have long since rendered themselves irrelevant what with the proliferation of federal and state agencies, and labor regulations that exist to protect employees today. Union workers have also become increasingly disenchanted with seeing their hard-earned, and mandatory, dues wasted on undeserving union officials with high six-figure incomes, their cronies with no-show jobs, and the posh lifestyle enjoyed at their expense (does the term ”high-maintenance” come to mind? How about “prima donna?”), not to mention the rights they've relinquished simply by joining a union - they can no longer negotiate directly with their employer, nor are they recognized for superior effort. When union officials demand to see-the-books, “management” graciously complies, but when the same transparency is asked of them, they cry foul claiming the Federally mandated LM-2 form, unchanged since 1959, is an inconvenience (try telling the IRS that filing tax returns is an inconvenience). Far from being a meritocracy, the argumentative "us-against-them" debate is perpetuated in order to protect their unnatural fiefdoms while always accompanied by the much played-out theme song “Gimme, Gimme, Gimme.” Rather than bowing out gracefully, this self-righteous justification is aimed at preventing their inevitable implosion surely destined to end not with a bang, but with a whimper much like the old Soviet Union.

Examples of union waste, fraud, inefficacy, criminal activity and greed abound almost daily. The FBI raid earlier this year on the personal homes of officials of the corrupt Washington, D.C.'s teachers union was merely the tip of the iceberg. United Airlines was forced into bankruptcy by its unions. Last year's dockworkers' strike on the Left-Coast crippled businesses nationwide while New York City's threatened transit strike would have cost the Big Apple upwards of $500 million a day in lost business. And for what, you ask? The longshoremen, who make $106,000 per year, by the way, felt threatened by barcodes. This "new" technology threatened to take away their preciously imprecise and time-consuming practice of manual-entry ledger bookkeeping (politely called “job security,” we see this for what it really is: “milking-it”). The NYC transit workers, with average annual salaries of $50,000, tried to extort a 26% pay increase over 3 years before "settling" for 11%, this in an era where inflation is essentially non-existent and the city is broke (in fact, it’s been deflation, and not inflation, that has been rearing its ugly head, again, recently). Are we going to see an 11% increase in productivity from them? Don't hold your breath, and don't even get me started on Gotham's infamous UFT (Union of Failed Teachers) where they claim the $13 billion operating budget of the NYC Board of Education, larger than 20 individual states mind you, is still not enough to educate our children (in some areas, upwards of 90% of students are not proficient in English and math - nothing like throwing good money after bad, huh?). Every time the communications workers man the picket lines, phone cables are mysteriously cut resulting in people dying from 911 calls not being able to get through. The musicians union recently struck in order to force Broadway producers to hire a minimum number of musicians, whether they are needed or not. And so on, and so on, and so on. With an unparalleled belligerence, these professional protestors have perfected the not-so-fine art of in-your-face unaccountability not unlike the petulance of small children who don’t get their way. How did it ever get to the point where the workers get to tell the boss what to do?

Make no mistake, unions destroy America. They have done more damage to this country than Osama Bin Laden could ever dream of inflicting. The recent Baghdad-style pillaging of the U.N. cafeteria by its diplomats pales in comparison to the looting of America by the unions over the years. By their very nature, unions are socialist organizations and, according to Marxist Theory, the last step before communism. That, in and of itself, makes unions un-American and, therefore, enemies of our free-market capitalist way of life (oh, and weren’t they spotted protesting hand-in-hand with the limousine-liberals from Hollywood against “Bush’s War for Oil?” Where are they now now that we’ve liberated Iraq?). To counter Karl Marx, renowned Nobel Laureate Milton Friedman quoted "To each according to what he and the instruments he owns produces" in his book Capitalism and Freedom. In a civilized society, there's simply no place for unions. Fortunately, the rate of union participation has steadily been on the decline for decades. Unfortunately, however, it's not happening fast enough. America is successful not because of unions, but despite them. It's time we take our country back from these domestic terrorists, by any means necessary.

###

Professor M. Schiller is a Wall Street money manager and an Adjunct Professor. A former U.S. Marine, he paid his own way through college and continues to educate himself in order to succeed and be a contributing and productive member of society, despite growing up in a union family. He does NOT accept people who belong to unions as clients.
[email protected]

Copyright © 2003. All rights reserved

 

[muskrat89]

At Trade School, I was an apprentice from a non-union shop. Most of the guys in my class were union, they were from the mines and pulp mills. They preached the Union stuff to me at the time - most of them are out of work now. Since then, I've only belonged to one, and it confirmed all of my pre-conceived notions. Paid Union dues to an Outfit that protected the useless and didn't do much for people that weren't buddies or relatives. Granted, that was my only experience in a Union, and I'm sure it's not a fair representation.

NOW - all that being said (and even though I'm "in management") I also believe that, especially today - if employers were treating their employees appropriately, there would be no reason for the employees to even think about one. I kind of agree with the consensus - they start for a good reason, but I think often the cure ends up being worse than the disease.

Yukon - my Dad was in Corrections in NB. I know you COs are a solid bunch

 

[schmalts]

I am union. Harley-davidson is strange because the plants or test facilities in Wisconsin, Kansas City,Talladega, and York Penn, all have different unions, some no union. I believe Unions help combat corperate greed. The downside is that some unions over pay lower skill jobs. It amazes me when a guy screwing in a bolt on an assembly line makes only a couple bucks less than an electrician or mechanic in the same company.
Some unions are worthless, some are great. I pay my dues and hope it pays off for the next contract we negotiate in 5 years.
What burns me is when the Union brother mentality gets out of hand, and it is taboo to say something negitive about some guys performance. I got flack when i reviewed an apprentice and gave him bad marks for motivation, and job performance. The guy is an old union guy who is looking to get off the assembly line to take a job as an experimental mechanic. He is as bright as a bowling ball but the union will protect him anyway.

 

[MarlandS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>whether you belong to a Union or not, your lifestyle that you now enjoy is a DIRECT result of the Unions <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah the Unions cause my equipment to be higher priced, they hold the prices down that I recieve for my grain because of all the union rip-offs in the shipping end of things, they cause my inputs to cost more because shipping is more expensive. Yeah the unions do me a lot of good.

My wife is a union supporter though, funny since she busts her ass on the repair line and has fewer faults than her counterparts in her area but the other associates make the same as her even though they have a higher percentage of returns AND they spend most of their shifts hiding, repairing sometimes 1/4th the cars she does, AND THE UNION PROTECTS THEM!! Ain't it fricking great?