Ukraine / Russia

[Nick87]

Most politicians have the brains not to.

That seems like a bold statement these days.

 

[Pucky Freak]

As an aside, and apologies for the derail, but all of this confusion/disagreement over why this is happening has me thinking about how I will soon be teaching argumentative writing to 8th graders. This task is becoming increasingly difficult to accomplish due to the difficulty of gathering and verifying credible evidence to support one’s claims. Those once-reliable sources of factual information are now called into question, even when verified by other sources. And when nothing appears trustworthy, the narrative, or interpretation of science, or historical account, or whatever “version of the truth” that feels right becomes what young people gravitate toward. Maybe most adults too. I’m really not sure if there’s more bias infused across the spectrum today’s traditional reporting outlets or if there’s just more attention called to it, but this idea that nothing is truly trustworthy, and that truth is a whole spectrum of grey that can never really be uncovered and made whole is deeply troubling to me.

Nuance is great. Life is complicated. But I feel like I’m poking a stick in the dark and never touching anything anymore when it comes to trying to understand all the stuff that’s going on right now, and it scares the hell out of me. Not for me, but for my kids.

Likely the most valuable subject I studied in high school was critical thinking. I will forever be thankful that my 11th grade English teacher decided to include this in his course curriculum. In college I studied relativism, and in graduate school I studied epistemology. For me, it is the cross-section of these three subjects that provides the framework of how to read and interpret data, especially arguments, viewpoints, and news.

ALL arguments, viewpoints, and news have value. Only some of the value is derived from the veracity of the information presented. The reason I say this is everyone has a unique perspective, and everyone has a unique set of motives for choosing to communicate what they do. A small percentage of people place a high value on communicating facts. Most everyone else places a higher value on attempting to manipulate the audience via appealing to their emotions, values, or existing beliefs. Under this premise, when I seek to understand the background and motives of the communicator, their entire message can be read in context.

Rather than bemoaning the spin in the news, I like spin. When I dig in to understanding the why and the how of the spin, I can learn a lot more. Similar to what VG mentioned, I consume news from a wide variety of outlets and sources all across the political spectrum. I'll even entertain the crackpot conspiracy theorist with a webcam every now and again. Remember when the mainstream narrative was that Osama Bin Laden was holed up in a cave somewhere? A voice far outside the mainstream, very early on, blasted that narrative by pointing out, among other things, that OBL was on kidney dialysis, and was very likely being sheltered in Pakistan in relative comfort. Granted, that is one cherry-picked example, and the mainstream news is FAR more likely to communicate facts than some webcam expert.

There is a highly convincing argument that the American public was deliberately mislead by some high-ranking members of dubya's first-term administration, significantly contributing towards invading Iraq. One of the consequences of this, and other similar events in our country's recent history, is a severe erosion of public trust towards historical sources of reliable information. It's no surprise that Americans have largely fractured into social and political tribes to meet our needs for belonging, comfort, and identity.

Over the last week, I've read a large volume of content produced directly by Ukrainians in Ukraine that appears to exaggerate the actions and damage of the Russian military forces. It's understandable why such exaggerations might be made though - these people are suffering terribly, and are desperate. Then far over on the other end of the news spectrum are entities like state media in Russia that paint a totally different picture of the "special military operation". Most mainstream news sits somewhere in the middle. Even firmly-left news outlet CNN appears to give a reasonable degree of balance to reported events about the Ukraine war, debunking claims from multiple sources on many fronts that cannot be independently verified by multiple sources.

 

[TN2shot07]

That seems like a bold statement these days.

True that, anybody with half a brain doesn’t want to be a politician in this country and we’re seeing it all play out

 

[Nick87]

Rather than bemoaning the spin in the news, I like spin. When I dig in to understanding the why and the how of the spin, I can learn a lot more

Lot of truth there.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

ALL arguments, viewpoints, and news have value. Only some of the value is derived from the veracity of the information presented. The reason I say this is everyone has a unique perspective, and everyone has a unique set of motives for choosing to communicate what they do. A small percentage of people place a high value on communicating facts. Most everyone else places a higher value on attempting to manipulate the audience via appealing to their emotions, values, or existing beliefs. Under this premise, when I seek to understand the background and motives of the communicator, their entire message can be read in context.

Rather than bemoaning the spin in the news, I like spin. When I dig in to understanding the why and the how of the spin, I can learn a lot more.

Everyone needs to stop typing and read this comment.

Well stated sir.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@ElkFever2

"everyone has a unique set of motives for choosing to communicate what they do"

I read this and immediately thought, man I bet if we Bill and Ted'd back to Sparta some dude would be calling Thucydides fake news.

 

[BigHornRam]

Most politicians have the brains not to.

Have a nice weekend. 406dn

Better than kissing Putin's ass.

The MSM did effective damage control and Obama went on to beat the Mormon that called Putin a spade.

And "son of a bitch", Putin invades Crimea in 2014!

 

[406dn]

Better than kissing Putin's ass.

The MMS did effective damage control and Obama went on to beat the Mormon that called Putin a spade.

And "son of a bitch", Putin invades Crimea in 2014!

Gee, I thought you might post a video of Putin and Trump in Helsinki if you wanted to show some Putin ass kissing.

 

[SAJ-99]

One question I have is how do we balance our light/heavy crude needs, as increasing domestic production alone does not give us the heavies some refineries and uses need. I wish we could fix Venezuela and get heavy in our hemisphere, but that is a whole other basket of crazy right now.

We will adjust the demand side of the equation.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

We will adjust the demand side of the equation.

Also it's important to point out that in 2008 WTI went to $180 and then plummeted to $55 in 2009... we shall see what happens. (Inflation adjusted)

I skeptical of anyone who predicts anything other than extreme volatility.

 

[BigHornRam]

Also it's important to point out that in 2008 WTI went to $180 and then plummeted to $55 in 2009... we shall see what happens.

I skeptical of anyone who predicts anything other than extreme volatility.

High of $133 wllm. What that is in 2022 dollars is much higher though.

How did the 2008 financial crisis affect the oil and gas sector?

The 2008 financial crisis had a negative impact on the oil and gas sector as it led to a steep decline in oil and gas prices and a contraction in credit.

www.investopedia.com

 

[Deleted member 28227]

High of $133 wllm. What that is in 2022 dollars is much higher though.

How did the 2008 financial crisis affect the oil and gas sector?

The 2008 financial crisis had a negative impact on the oil and gas sector as it led to a steep decline in oil and gas prices and a contraction in credit.

www.investopedia.com

Yeah sorry I had adjusted for inflation.

 

[noharleyyet]

The entire debate in summary:

But Orangeman…

 

[Cheesehead]

And the real question

 

[Rainer]

I also don't know why some people in the west are shocked with the images coming out of Ukraine. The horse blinders should come off. Russia is using the same playbook as the US did 2003. The invasion of Ukraine is illegal just as the invasion of Iraq was....... and the drone program...... and backing Israel over Palestine.... and funding the Saudi's as they fight Yemen...... Putin is just doing the exact same thing as us in the west seems to be okay with. Is it because they aren't Muslim we care so much?

 

[longbow51]

Looks like the problem has been solved, according to at least one Hollywood elitist; just kick Russia out of NATO. Easy peasy.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Russia is using the same playbook as the US did 2003.

Except with no pretext or international support. I don't completely disagree, but I think there are notable differences.

This is a Putin only/ Russian only mission.

The US/UK/Australia/Poland initially invaded Iraq with support from Italy/Netherlands/Spain... Bush made arguments before the UN, congress passed a resolution.

So my argument is while one might argue that both were unjust wars, Russia invaded Ukraine unilaterally without warning, while the US debated invading Iraq for months in front of the world. Putin hasn't said why he invaded or what his goal is with the invasion.

 

[SAJ-99]

Also it's important to point out that in 2008 WTI went to $180 and then plummeted to $55 in 2009... we shall see what happens. (Inflation adjusted)

I skeptical of anyone who predicts anything other than extreme volatility.

Yep. Recession. Fix the housing problems, inflation, and oil supply/demand imbalance all at the same time.

 

[GoGriz]

If you're going to argue, could you please learn the difference between you're (you are) and your (possessive). Whatever the validity of your argument, you're losing audience. See how easy?

Just curious - when you read a post like that from a new member, do you guys immediately think someone from Russia sitting in a dark room full of computers just looking for a place to interject/ stir stuff up, or do you picture someone who enjoys hunting and was following the conversation as a lurker and was compelled to create an account so he could just into this particular conversation? Could go either way in my mind, it’s just interesting to think about as you read a thread like this one.

 

[VikingsGuy]

As an aside, and apologies for the derail, but all of this confusion/disagreement over why this is happening has me thinking about how I will soon be teaching argumentative writing to 8th graders. This task is becoming increasingly difficult to accomplish due to the difficulty of gathering and verifying credible evidence to support one’s claims. Those once-reliable sources of factual information are now called into question, even when verified by other sources. And when nothing appears trustworthy, the narrative, or interpretation of science, or historical account, or whatever “version of the truth” that feels right becomes what young people gravitate toward. Maybe most adults too. I’m really not sure if there’s more bias infused across the spectrum today’s traditional reporting outlets or if there’s just more attention called to it, but this idea that nothing is truly trustworthy, and that truth is a whole spectrum of grey that can never really be uncovered and made whole is deeply troubling to me.

Nuance is great. Life is complicated. But I feel like I’m poking a stick in the dark and never touching anything anymore when it comes to trying to understand all the stuff that’s going on right now, and it scares the hell out of me. Not for me, but for my kids.

There is a website called allsides.com that is great for getting students to see the spectrum of positions. My son was in charge of their social media streams for a few years as an intern. They also have evaluations of most common news sources and where they are across the political spectrum.

As for argumentative writing, I am assuming you are tackling issues where there is not scientific truth, but rather a spectrum of policy choice. And making one’s argument in the gray is the exact skill they are trying to develop. They don’t need to find “truth”, they need to credibly and clearly articulate a point of view with support. In fact, I hope you make them write both sides of an issue in separate papers (like debaters and moot court students need to). The worst part of our current state is not that there is to much gray and too little alignment on sources, it is that too many people start the discussion with, “I don’t know how anyone could think that”. That is just the sign of narrow thinking and a lack of empathy. Good luck with your class. It sounds like a great thing to be teaching our kids today.