Training reads/videos

[Huntkook]

Now that I have a bird dog I'll need to train him, what books or videos would you recommend?

 

[406dn]

What type of bird dog, flushing, pointing, versatile?

 

[Huntkook]

What type of bird dog, flushing, pointing, versatile?

Brittany

 

[406dn]

It's been so long since I purchased a training book that I'm a bit reluctant to recommend specific ones.

Go to either Gun Dog Supply or Lion Country and look thru their selection of training books and videos. Long ago, I bought several. Bill Tarrant's book The Delmar Smith or something like that has a lot of good info. His training is a little harsher than mine has evolved to. A book that is older than dirt, but good is Training Pointing Dogs by Paul Long.

There are only few things a pointing dog needs to do that it won't do pretty naturally. It has to come to you when you call it in. It has to stop when you tell it to stop. It has to turn when you tell it to turn.

Assuming this is still a puppy, it is a great time to take it for walks somewhere safe for it to explore while going with you. Young puppies don't have much leg, so they aren't really going to run off. Also they aren't often confident enough to really just leave you. So, I take them on jaunts at every chance. I change the direction I'm walking pretty often and just call the puppies name. Without them knowing, you are building a foundation of them going with you, and getting to the front of you.

So if it's still real young, take advantage of that. Personally, their first year, all I really want to get done is having them go with me. I also train whoa very young, very gently at the food dish. Just retrain them gently and say whoa softly. You'll have to correct them when you release the restraint but they'll be standing at whoa next to their food dish in no time. Whoa is a cornerstone to training pointing dogs, but don't ever use it around birds until they are absolutely solid on it. Solid like they'll quickly stop when you say whoa when they are running to a food dish.

I suspect you will train on released birds. IMO, using the release traps mostly for training stop to flush yields better results than setting up just situations for the dog to point. There is less pressure on the dog, and you. The dog still learns a needed lesson, that is if a bird flies away, it stops.

You'll make mistakes, not a big deal. The only real way to ruin a bird dog is to be too harsh around birds. Short of that, you will learn a lot training one. Your second one will benefit from that.

 

[Matt Dworak]

I’m a new pup owner myself and almost posted this same question a few weeks ago but instead asked some buddies with some kick butt dogs. This is what they recommend, I’m a fan so far. No nonsense, geared toward hunting, not field trials and the author has a ton of experience. Used on Amazon for about $5.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Brittany is often not a great retreiver. Mine will sorta do uplands if she's working alone, especially if it's a cripple. She LOVES to retreive ducks for some reason, especially from water (go figure). She's really got a thing for quackers. I've always had Labs to do the retreiving so it's never been a big deal. However, if you run into problems early, you may want to consider force fetch. I would advise taking the pup to a pro for that. Keep in mind Britts, especially females, are often very much not alpha dogs when hunting with other dogs. That can be a good thing ... or not so good. Possibly not an issue if you plan to hunt this one solo. Like others have said, work on the basics for the first year. Brittany, especially French Britt, are not as rangey as many pointing dogs (though American variety is getting worse) but I still prefer them working close, mostly because they are smaller dogs harder to see and because I typically hunt late in the season after the birds have been shot up and snow on the ground. Rooster pheasants in particular get jumpy after it snows and raptors can see them easier. Anyway, the advice to spend a lot of time afoot with the pup when it's very young is good. They are more clingy at that stage and it may become habit to stay closer.

Incidentally, I never use the "whoa" command. It sounds too much like "go" which is a word I use very often with my dogs. I train them at the dog dish with "wait". Has a unique sound. Just thought I'd throw that out.

 

[Beignet]

Subscribed. Some good info on here already, but looking forward to seeing more fill up.

We recently acquired a pup as well. I have no idea what I’m doing as far as dogs go. It’s an unconventional mix of breeds for a pointing dog, but hoping I can get the thing to find a grouse or two.

I just ordered a load of stuff from Lion Country, including the DVD “Great Beginnings-The First Year, Pointers by G. Hickox” if that’s of any interest to OP.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Subscribed. Some good info on here already, but looking forward to seeing more fill up.

We recently acquired a pup as well. I have no idea what I’m doing as far as dogs go. It’s an unconventional mix of breeds for a pointing dog, but hoping I can get the thing to find a grouse or two.

I just ordered a load of stuff from Lion Country, including the DVD “Great Beginnings-The First Year, Pointers by G. Hickox” if that’s of any interest to OP.

So what kind of dog? Best hunting and family dog I'll ever own was a $35 mixed breed.

 

[406dn]

Since we are tossing out advice and opinions, I am not a particular fan of Richard Wolters approach for training pointing dogs. One reason is his using the wing on a string sight pointing approach. That might cause a dog to think it needs to see a bird before it points. It is almost never that a dog should see a bird that it's pointing.

Okay, I field trial, full disclosure, but before that I hunted pointing dogs, a lot. Do not obsess over the dog's range. If it ranges further than you are comfortable, but goes with you, you need to get more comfortable with that. The major benefit a pointing dog offers is that it can cover more ground than you can.

You get to decide what you want from the dog, and train it in that direction. There are hunters that want a retrieve to hand, every time, or they aren't satisfied with the dog. Other hunters are fine with the dog finding the bird, bringing it back part way and they meet the dog there. I force fetched a couple of dogs before my field trial journey began. It certainly improved their retrieving. Since then, I have not trained that because there are enough other aspects that have to be solid. Every pointing dog I've had wanted to find the downed bird. The worst natural retriever (one that was force fetch trained) would find the bird, kill it if it was alive, mouth it if it was dead, stand over it for a few seconds, then go back to hunting.

All of the others would retrieve birds. Some of them very well, some half heartedly. Whatever they gave me in that regard, I have accepted. So, it's your decision how important a polished retrieve is to you.

 

[AlaskaHunter]

If you subscribe to Audible, I highly recommend the audio book "Training the Pointing Labrador"
The author has much information that would be useful to pointing breeds, especially "The Puppy Walk"

 

[Beignet]

So what kind of dog? Best hunting and family dog I'll ever own was a $35 mixed breed.

It’s got some collie, some English shepherd and some kind of retriever. I think it’s going to be more predisposed to want to herd a covey than point it out, haha.

Not at all a natural pointer. But I’ve been under the impression that, with a little effort, you can train an intelligent dog to do just about anything. Intend to test that hypothesis. Hopefully with some more book and video recommendations from this thread.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Since we are tossing out advice and opinions, I am not a particular fan of Richard Wolters approach for training pointing dogs. One reason is his using the wing on a string sight pointing approach. That might cause a dog to think it needs to see a bird before it points. It is almost never that a dog should see a bird that it's pointing.

Okay, I field trial, full disclosure, but before that I hunted pointing dogs, a lot. Do not obsess over the dog's range. If it ranges further than you are comfortable, but goes with you, you need to get more comfortable with that. The major benefit a pointing dog offers is that it can cover more ground than you can.

You get to decide what you want from the dog, and train it in that direction. There are hunters that want a retrieve to hand, every time, or they aren't satisfied with the dog. Other hunters are fine with the dog finding the bird, bringing it back part way and they meet the dog there. I force fetched a couple of dogs before my field trial journey began. It certainly improved their retrieving. Since then, I have not trained that because there are enough other aspects that have to be solid. Every pointing dog I've had wanted to find the downed bird. The worst natural retriever (one that was force fetch trained) would find the bird, kill it if it was alive, mouth it if it was dead, stand over it for a few seconds, then go back to hunting.

All of the others would retrieve birds. Some of them very well, some half heartedly. Whatever they gave me in that regard, I have accepted. So, it's your decision how important a polished retrieve is to you.

For field trials, a far ranging dog is preferred. For hunting, it very, very much depends on the situation. My little Britt does not range far for a pointing dog. That is one of the breed's assets. Legend has it that poachers in France developed the Brittany as a small dog that worked close so it could be scooped quickly and stuffed in the game bag when the game keeper was onto them. This fall the prolonged drought continued to cause havoc with upland hunting in Montana. Cover was sparse, over grazing was prevalent (besides lack of range, poor auction prices meant many ranchers held over animals that should have went to market), CPR disappearing, more hunting pressure. It all adds up to much fewer and much spookier birds. My Britt is an excellent pointer but if she didn't go on point within twenty yards and in the wide open, I wasn't getting a shot. The pheasants wouldn't hold. Period. I don't care how good the dog is. The pheasant was up and away before I could get close enough to be able to determine sex, deal with the never ending wind, and get a shot off. For Huns, which were unusually numerous this year, it was a slightly different story. They are covey critters. Even when they have been shot up, they still tend to hold a bit better. I think everyone is waiting for someone to make the decision to bust. This year the roosters I shot (and I did shoot quite a few) were almost all in very heavy cover. It simply was not possible to work my Britt and expect any shooting. I couldn't see her (be damned if I'll listen to one of those beeper collars all day!) and she was usually too far away when she did find them. If my Lab got me one or two roosters then I would let the little dog work. The Lab works very close and she is a good pointer as well. However, this year, even more so than past years, the few pheasants she found were not holding for her. They gave up very few points in places where I could actually see her working. Mostly I had to turn up my hearing aids and listen for her to stop moving. Then get ready. A bird was going in the air ... somewhere. More often than not the birds flushed as soon as they heard us ... often sixty yards away or further. Guys who came cross country with pointing dogs in fancy trailers to hunt that refuge were getting almost no birds. Maybe their far ranging dogs found more birds per acre than mine (a BIG maybe), but their guns weren't getting dirty.

It has been my experience, and I have a lot of it, that especially in these lean times (which by all accounts are only going to get leaner), a close working pointing dog is most desirable, especially for hunting wild pheasants on public land. For me finding more birds is not as important as getting more shots. Anyway, it's more fun watching a dog work in front of you than out of sight in the next zipcode.

 

[406dn]

For field trials, a far ranging dog is preferred. For hunting, it very, very much depends on the situation. My little Britt does not range far for a pointing dog. That is one of the breed's assets. Legend has it that poachers in France developed the Brittany as a small dog that worked close so it could be scooped quickly and stuffed in the game bag when the game keeper was onto them. This fall the prolonged drought continued to cause havoc with upland hunting in Montana. Cover was sparse, over grazing was prevalent (besides lack of range, poor auction prices meant many ranchers held over animals that should have went to market), CPR disappearing, more hunting pressure. It all adds up to much fewer and much spookier birds. My Britt is an excellent pointer but if she didn't go on point within twenty yards and in the wide open, I wasn't getting a shot. The pheasants wouldn't hold. Period. I don't care how good the dog is. The pheasant was up and away before I could get close enough to be able to determine sex, deal with the never ending wind, and get a shot off. For Huns, which were unusually numerous this year, it was a slightly different story. They are covey critters. Even when they have been shot up, they still tend to hold a bit better. I think everyone is waiting for someone to make the decision to bust. This year the roosters I shot (and I did shoot quite a few) were almost all in very heavy cover. It simply was not possible to work my Britt and expect any shooting. I couldn't see her (be damned if I'll listen to one of those beeper collars all day!) and she was usually too far away when she did find them. If my Lab got me one or two roosters then I would let the little dog work. The Lab works very close and she is a good pointer as well. However, this year, even more so than past years, the few pheasants she found were not holding for her. They gave up very few points in places where I could actually see her working. Mostly I had to turn up my hearing aids and listen for her to stop moving. Then get ready. A bird was going in the air ... somewhere. More often than not the birds flushed as soon as they heard us ... often sixty yards away or further. Guys who came cross country with pointing dogs in fancy trailers to hunt that refuge were getting almost no birds. Maybe their far ranging dogs found more birds per acre than mine (a BIG maybe), but their guns weren't getting dirty.

It has been my experience, and I have a lot of it, that especially in these lean times (which by all accounts are only going to get leaner), a close working pointing dog is most desirable, especially for hunting wild pheasants on public land. For me finding more birds is not as important as getting more shots. Anyway, it's more fun watching a dog work in front of you than out of sight in the next zipcode.

That is your opinion and experience. It is not mine.

A pointing dog is at its best a force multiplier. That is it covers a whole lot of ground searching for a widely scattered target. A dog that ranges little out of gun range is not saving you any steps.

Yes, different birds have different responses to being pointed. In my experience late season sharptails are the most difficult bird to get to hold for a point. Pheasants often flush wild far in front of you, but not all of them. The ones that remain are much more like to hold than are late season sharptails. Huns are close to a perfect bird for a pointing dog. That is, the dog must be honest, but if it is, they will hold. Late in the season they don't always hold well enough for a good shot, but they usually do.

Under the right circumstances I have cleaned up on late season pheasant. That does not always come together, but 6 inches of fresh snow that has not drifted, is an ideal time to hunt them. If you wait until the last couple of hours of daylight, you will get a limit if there are any birds to be had, and you don't need 5 chance to kill a bird.

I hunt entirely different cover for pheasants than a hunter with a flushing dog. Whatever type pf dog a person has, find cover that plays to its strengths.

I seldom take photos of dead birds, but a friend shot this one of me and Belle. She was the first good bird dog I have had. I had to learn to accept her far ranging search. I came to realize that she was not running off, she was honest on her birds. When she was on point, she almost always had birds.



Neither her or I realized then that she would bend the arc of my life so profoundly.

 

[OntarioHunter]

After the first two weeks of season sharptails are pretty much a waste of time. The odd single may hold but better run to the dog because it won't hold long no matter what kind of dog. If a flock busts out of range also run to the dog because often there's a retarded single or pair that leave late.

If you are hunting private land late or public land for planted pheasants, that is an entirely different scenario. And again, the drought has also been a huge game changer. Ten or twelve years ago I could easily dust a limit of public land roosters in a couple of hours working any of my dogs or all three at once (two flushing Labs and this Britt). And I didn't shoot NEARLY as well back then. But now the habitat and hunting availability has dried up 80% at least. What's left is hit hard and taking a beating from climate change. The good old days are gone. I advise future upland hunters to change to meet the environmental changes if they want to shoot pheasants. Places where formerly I could kill roosters over my Britt in tall grass and bullrushes is now burnt bald prairie grazed to dirt. Farmers are tearing up sagebrush and pulling out Russian olive. Cattail ditches and sloughs are stomped to stubble because that's the only place cattle can find any green grass. Wherever there's any heavy cover is where the few birds left will congregate. Good luck using a far ranging pointing dog in thick cattails or Russian olive groves. Where's the dog? Unless you're sitting on a horse, you won't see it. That's where the birds are now. I can hunt the remaining open grasslands on the refuge for days and not find anything to shoot at working both the Lab and the Britt. Get into the cattails and tough it out. That's where they are. The harder the wind blows, the better. Then they can't hear as well. Same if there's lots of new snow. New snow and windy is best but most miserable. Shooting pheasants these days on public land is extremely challenging. Much more so than in recent past decades.

I agree, the "witching hour" last forty minutes before dark can be the best hunting. Pheasants are calling and moving to bunch up and spend the night congregated ... defence against coyotes. But that's not a very long period to hunt. You better already know where the few birds are located. And know where they want to go before dark. I have intercepted hundreds in one evening. But these days finding them in time and without them flushing wild first is mostly luck. During the day if a bird flushes wild, don't shoot, watch where it lands, give it an hour, and go after it again. Don't have that luxury during the last forty minutes.

Anyway, with conditions for hunting changing as they are, I advise switching to a close working dog. Pheasants don't hold like they used to. They are not found in the same country we used to find them. In short, it's just not the same game any more and I really don't see much hope for a return to those golden years. A close working dog will ensure more chance for a shot. I don't see how a long ranging dog can when the long range hunting habitat is disappearing and the birds are becoming wilder. And that's exactly what I've been seeing the last twenty years, especially the last seven years.

 

[406dn]

After the first two weeks of season sharptails are pretty much a waste of time. The odd single may hold but better run to the dog because it won't hold long no matter what kind of dog. If a flock busts out of range also run to the dog because often there's a retarded single or pair that leave late.

If you are hunting private land late or public land for planted pheasants, that is an entirely different scenario. And again, the drought has also been a huge game changer. Ten or twelve years ago I could easily dust a limit of public land roosters in a couple of hours working any of my dogs or all three at once (two flushing Labs and this Britt). And I didn't shoot NEARLY as well back then. But now the habitat and hunting availability has dried up 80% at least. What's left is hit hard and taking a beating from climate change. The good old days are gone. I advise future upland hunters to change to meet the environmental changes if they want to shoot pheasants. Places where formerly I could kill roosters over my Britt in tall grass and bullrushes is now burnt bald prairie grazed to dirt. Farmers are tearing up sagebrush and pulling out Russian olive. Cattail ditches and sloughs are stomped to stubble because that's the only place cattle can find any green grass. Wherever there's any heavy cover is where the few birds left will congregate. Good luck using a far ranging pointing dog in thick cattails or Russian olive groves. Where's the dog? Unless you're sitting on a horse, you won't see it. That's where the birds are now. I can hunt the remaining open grasslands on the refuge for days and not find anything to shoot at working both the Lab and the Britt. Get into the cattails and tough it out. That's where they are. The harder the wind blows, the better. Then they can't hear as well. Same if there's lots of new snow. New snow and windy is best but most miserable. Shooting pheasants these days on public land is extremely challenging. Much more so than in recent past decades.

I agree, the "witching hour" last forty minutes before dark can be the best hunting. Pheasants are calling and moving to bunch up and spend the night congregated ... defence against coyotes. But that's not a very long period to hunt. You better already know where the few birds are located. And know where they want to go before dark. I have intercepted hundreds in one evening. But these days finding them in time and without them flushing wild first is mostly luck. During the day if a bird flushes wild, don't shoot, watch where it lands, give it an hour, and go after it again. Don't have that luxury during the last forty minutes.

Anyway, with conditions for hunting changing as they are, I advise switching to a close working dog. Pheasants don't hold like they used to. They are not found in the same country we used to find them. In short, it's just not the same game any more and I really don't see much hope for a return to those golden years. A close working dog will ensure more chance for a shot. I don't see how a long ranging dog can when the long range hunting habitat is disappearing and the birds are becoming wilder. And that's exactly what I've been seeing the last twenty years, especially the last seven years.

You are WRONG about sharptails, they hold well enough for the first month of the season, becoming increasingly difficult for the remainder of the season. I have killed them into December over points, and not just an odd single. Any sharptail killed that late will involve a dog standing well off the birds, and the hunter making a long shot. It does not happen often but it does happen.

I thought I mentioned hunting where a dog's talents are best used. I don't hunt cattail sloughs. Turn a dog lose where it has a chance to shine. I have owned pointing dogs for over thirty years, never lost one, don't have difficulty finding them on point. While I always train from horseback, I hunt far more often afoot. That transition is not difficult, more work for me thou.

I'll leave it to the next generation to figure out how best to hunt. But there are many reasons a person hunts with any bird dog. One reason is to kill birds. But there are many others. A big one for me is enjoying the scope of a dog's search. I am bored to tears if a dog is not cutting a good lick. That is not for everyone, but it is for some. A person can use a big running pointing dog and kill a lot of birds, been there, done that.

 

[OntarioHunter]

You are WRONG about sharptails, they hold well enough for the first month of the season, becoming increasingly difficult for the remainder of the season. I have killed them into December over points, and not just an odd single. Any sharptail killed that late will involve a dog standing well off the birds, and the hunter making a long shot. It does not happen often but it does happen.

I thought I mentioned hunting where a dog's talents are best used. I don't hunt cattail sloughs. Turn a dog lose where it has a chance to shine. I have owned pointing dogs for over thirty years, never lost one, don't have difficulty finding them on point. While I always train from horseback, I hunt far more often afoot. That transition is not difficult, more work for me thou.

I'll leave it to the next generation to figure out how best to hunt. But there are many reasons a person hunts with any bird dog. One reason is to kill birds. But there are many others. A big one for me is enjoying the scope of a dog's search. I am bored to tears if a dog is not cutting a good lick. That is not for everyone, but it is for some. A person can use a big running pointing dog and kill a lot of birds, been there, done that.

You and I obviously have different ideas about what is a "waste of time." You say that hunting sharpies late with a big running pointing dog does produce some coveys that will hold for long shots, but just not very often. That is somehow more productive than pushing a limit of roosters up from heavy cattails and taking them home with three or four shots, albeit I have shed four or five pounds in the process.

Yes, a person can still kill a limit of birds with big running pointing dogs. But it is a LOT harder these days. This year I shot almost as many roosters during late October to first week in December as I did during the same period ten years ago. Probably saw fifty times as many birds back then. The difference is this Lab is exceptional and my shooting is a hundred times better. Ellie works close and is a fantastic pointer. For productivity, as in putting birds in the bag productivity, that is the perfect combination for current, and I am certain future, hunting conditions. Yes, I enjoy watching my dogs go on point and work a wary bird (if it will even let them get close enough for a point), but the key word there is "watch." I get a lot bigger kick out of being with them when it happens than squinting from the cheap seats in left field.

I did shoot my one and only lifetime triple of roosters this year during what is certainly the worst hunting season I've yet experienced for adverse conditions and poor bird numbers. It would not have happened except Ellie and I were done for the day, exhausted with an empty bag, and walking the road back to the vehicle. We rounded a blind u-curve in a pocket of willow and she went on point ten yards in front of me. I quickly got around the other side of her and five roosters got up almost in succession just as I stepped off the road. Had she been ten yards further down the road I doubt I would have got a shot. They just won't hold that long. Walking down the snowy road in a brisk wind concealed our noise. Lucky.

 

[406dn]

You and I obviously have different ideas about what is a "waste of time." You say that hunting sharpies late with a big running pointing dog does produce some coveys that will hold for long shots, but just not very often. That is somehow more productive than pushing a limit of roosters up from heavy cattails and taking them home with three or four shots, albeit I have shed four or five pounds in the process.

Yes, a person can still kill a limit of birds with big running pointing dogs. But it is a LOT harder these days. This year I shot almost as many roosters during late October to first week in December as I did during the same period ten years ago. Probably saw fifty times as many birds back then. The difference is this Lab is exceptional and my shooting is a hundred times better. Ellie works close and is a fantastic pointer. For productivity, as in putting birds in the bag productivity, that is the perfect combination for current, and I am certain future, hunting conditions. Yes, I enjoy watching my dogs go on point and work a wary bird (if it will even let them get close enough for a point), but the key word there is "watch." I get a lot bigger kick out of being with them when it happens than squinting from the cheap seats in left field.

I did shoot my one and only lifetime triple of roosters this year during what is certainly the worst hunting season I've yet experienced for adverse conditions and poor bird numbers. It would not have happened except Ellie and I were done for the day, exhausted with an empty bag, and walking the road back to the vehicle. We rounded a blind u-curve in a pocket of willow and she went on point ten yards in front of me. I quickly got around the other side of her and five roosters got up almost in succession just as I stepped off the road. Had she been ten yards further down the road I doubt I would have got a shot. They just won't hold that long. Walking down the snowy road in a brisk wind concealed our noise. Lucky.
View attachment 258081

What you seem not to grasp is that every person has their own unique reasons they do anything, including bird hunting. Those reasons are as valid as any you hold.

When I mentioned late season sharptails, I was not targeting them per se. I was bird hunting in an sage brushed area that held pheasants, huns, sharptails and sage grouse. So a point might be any of them. Some of the dogs I've owned never got sharptails pointed from far enough back to make it happen. But if the dog points them from 40-50 yards away, the birds will sometimes hold until you get past the dog a little bit. It still makes for a long shot, but makable with a 12 gauge and a tighter choke.

You will have a hard time finding me dissing anyone's choice of bird dog. If that is how a person wants to do it, that's they way they should do it. I am tired of you capping on big running pointing dogs when you clearly are talking out of your hat. Should everyone own a big running dog, NO. But they are very good bird dogs. They take more commitment in getting them well trained, which I find very rewarding.

 

[BirdManMike]

What you seem not to grasp is that every person has their own unique reasons they do anything, including bird hunting. Those reasons are as valid as any you hold.

When I mentioned late season sharptails, I was not targeting them per se. I was bird hunting in an sage brushed area that held pheasants, huns, sharptails and sage grouse. So a point might be any of them. Some of the dogs I've owned never got sharptails pointed from far enough back to make it happen. But if the dog points them from 40-50 yards away, the birds will sometimes hold until you get past the dog a little bit. It still makes for a long shot, but makable with a 12 gauge and a tighter choke.

You will have a hard time finding me dissing anyone's choice of bird dog. If that is how a person wants to do it, that's they way they should do it. I am tired of you capping on big running pointing dogs when you clearly are talking out of your hat. Should everyone own a big running dog, NO. But they are very good bird dogs. They take more commitment in getting them well trained, which I find very rewarding.

You might as well be talking to a person on the television. You’d get the same level of engagement in the conversion.


@406dn has given great advice. You’re location says PA, @Huntkook, so all of it may not be applicable but most sure is.

My advice is to set your expectations at a reasonable level. Meaning, try to get your pup on WILD birds early, but don’t go at it with the expectation of shooting them right away. Excitement in your voice in the form of praise is as good as a bird in the mouth for most pointers. Just as an example, my current dog is 2 years old and has never had anything shot over her - neither wild nor launched - and will range many hundreds of yards finding birds and holding point until I release her (I’m flying falcons on the birds). She holds a point far enough back to not pressure the birds. She is as good or better than most dogs I’ve seen work, with some exceptions, and she has never had a dead bird in her mouth.

I’m not suggesting you shouldn’t shoot birds. Just emphasizing that your expectations in the early stages of hunting don’t have to put too much emphasis on putting a dead bird in the dogs mouth. Praise goes a loooong way in reinforcing good behavior.

Be careful playing pigeon games. I’ve had more than one person lament their dog bumping wild birds constantly and even ask me to loan some pigeons for more training work. Ive told them the same thing, first that I put too much work into my pigeons to lend them for that nonsense and second what do they think they are teaching their dog when the continually blast a pigeon their dog has been 'pointing‘ from 10‘ away?

Woodcock are great birds for young dogs. Better than grouse. I imagine those are your local options? The woodcock stink and they really hold tight, honoring the point.

Good luck!

 

[406dn]

I have always considered a dog's first hunting season as whatever will be will be. I do not care if I kill a bird all fall. What I want is to get the dog into birds, birds birds. They will point some of them. They will rip out some of them. Most of their encounters are points, held for a second or ten, followed by them ripping them out. I don't correct a dog around birds at all during their first season.

Every dog I've had thou, has pointed and held a bird well enough for me to flush the bird for it. When that happens I will kill the bird for it. Most dogs become staunch on point pretty quickly if you refrain from killing birds they handle poorly, and only kill birds for them when they do it right.

There is a very distinct improvement their second year, followed by another improvement in their third year. After that, you more or less have the dog you are going to have.

Since I do field trial, there are several other things that have to be trained. The obvious is their manners around birds. They can't chase birds, AT ALL. They can't take steps after a bird is flushed, AT ALL. They must honor another dog's point, every time. All off that takes some training. The less obvious thing is training their ground race. That is about the only thing you can expect continued improvement until the dog enters old age. That is where handling from a horse is so valuable. A person on a horse can just influence a dog in ways that aren't possible from handling while walking. The goal is a dog that hunts at good speed out out in front of you. Their ground pattern is also the only thing that you know with certainty can be worked on in a training session, if working on wild birds.

 

[jejack26]

You are WRONG about sharptails, they hold well enough for the first month of the season, becoming increasingly difficult for the remainder of the season. I have killed them into December over points, and not just an odd single. Any sharptail killed that late will involve a dog standing well off the birds, and the hunter making a long shot. It does not happen often but it does happen.

I thought I mentioned hunting where a dog's talents are best used. I don't hunt cattail sloughs. Turn a dog lose where it has a chance to shine. I have owned pointing dogs for over thirty years, never lost one, don't have difficulty finding them on point. While I always train from horseback, I hunt far more often afoot. That transition is not difficult, more work for me thou.

I'll leave it to the next generation to figure out how best to hunt. But there are many reasons a person hunts with any bird dog. One reason is to kill birds. But there are many others. A big one for me is enjoying the scope of a dog's search. I am bored to tears if a dog is not cutting a good lick. That is not for everyone, but it is for some. A person can use a big running pointing dog and kill a lot of birds, been there, done that.

Just curious, how far do you let them range before it gets uncomfortable.