Short action vs. long action

[AtomicDog]

I often read that people are looking for a cartridge in a short-action. For example, a .308 (short action) vs. a .30-06 (long action) is 2.8" OAL vs. 3.34" OAL. I wouldn't think it would make the rifle lighter enough to make any difference.

Why choose one vs. the other?

 

[Mustangs Rule]

There is not one fits all answer for me.



I have a Sako medium action in a Finnlight chambered in .308. Everything just fits, the longest being Tipped TSX 150 grain Barnes. Just fits, not a hint extra. 200 grain bullets would not fit, but I do not use them.



I have a full length commercial 98 mauser action, and my 225 grain Barnes TSX for my 35 whelen are too long. It is a two shot rifle, one in the chamber, and first one in the mag where the loading ramp offers a bit of extra length.



I had a Mexican mauser action designed around the 7x57, a little shorter action,,, that was sweet.



Kimber offers a full length action, but has so streamlined the bolt and reciever that the gun with a 24 inch barrel is just 5 ¾ pounds.



I have a model 70 in 6.5x55 and the long action has so very much left over.

 

[Bgriffith]

Cycle time? Or that was the old thought that shorter “throw” would mean less time between shots… or less metal=lighter action… and that might be true when you break down ounces… interesting side note I’ve kinda been intrigued by “short action” calibers in long actions with big (long) heavy, fast twists… think .243 rem ackley with 117 grains and I donno 1:8 or so twist? Or 6mm rem with same… or 260 in a long action with a fast twist… long bullet… I might be weird but I know

 

[TN2shot07]

I’ve had plenty of rifles chambered in both but currently only have long actions. There are definitely people who count the weight difference and that’s fair (generally not much, just pick the chambering you want and roll on). I don’t buy the quicker follow up shot for an average shooter. In my experience my favorite attribute of short actions is not having issues with mounting shorter scopes (not hunting for extended rings to make it work).

 

[ImBillT]

There is the bolt throw crowd, the weight crowd, and the action stiffness crowd. I don’t buy the long bolt throw as being substantially meaningful. The weight difference is incredibly minor. The action is longer but so are the magazine cutout and ejection port in the action, and the inletting in the stock. The real weight difference in an assembled gun is about 2oz with a blind magazine, and slightly more with detachable mags or a floor plate. The decrease in action stiffness seems to have been much ado about nothing even in benchrest type settings, so there’s no reason for a hunter to worry about it.

@Bgriffith You’re spot on that a lot of S/A cartridges could benefit from more length than a factory 700 S/A magazine offers. To get the full benefits of seating longer you need a custom reamer with a longer throat as well. Generally though, they don’t quite require a L/A and you might be happier by simply going with a longer magazine like a Wyatt’s. 1-8” for a big 6mm will severely limit what bullets you can shoot. I’ve blown up Berger 108s and Sierra 75s in a 1-8” 6mm Remington. I wish I had gone with 1-8.5” or even 1-9” and just left 115s for BRs and 6x47Ls.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

There is the bolt throw crowd, the weight crowd, and the action stiffness crowd. I don’t buy the long bolt throw as being substantially meaningful. The weight difference is incredibly minor. The action is longer but so are the magazine cutout and ejection port in the action, and the inletting in the stock. The real weight difference in an assembled gun is about 2oz with a blind magazine, and slightly more with detachable mags or a floor plate. The decrease in action stiffness seems to have been much ado about nothing even in benchrest type settings, so there’s no reason for a hunter to worry about it.

@Bgriffith You’re spot on that a lot of S/A cartridges could benefit from more length than a factory 700 S/A magazine offers. To get the full benefits of seating longer you need a custom reamer with a longer throat as well. Generally though, they quite require a L/A and you might be happier by simply going with a longer magazine like a Wyatt’s. 1-8” for a big 6mm will severely limit what bullets you can shoot. I’ve blown up a Berger 108s and Sierra 75s in a 1-8” 6mm Remington. I wish I had gone with 1-8.5” or even 1-9” and just left 115s for BRs and 6x47Ls.

Aren't all Tikka actions the same length as well with a bolt stop to adjust between short and long cartridges?

So in the case of Tikka really no difference at all?

 

[ImBillT]

Aren't all Tikka actions the same length as well with a bolt stop to adjust between short and long cartridges?

So in the case of Tikka really no difference at all?

All I know about Tikka is that I saw a lot of factory Tikka 308Wins beating full custom 30x44s, 30x47s and tightneck 308s in Hunter Class Benchrest matches. I never saw one do better than 2nd place, but he’d have taken 1st place if I hadn’t shown up that day, and he usually shot a 30x47. In other words, they’re incredibly accurate right out of the box.

I like the idea of an adjustable bolt stop. I have a wildcat on a L/A that has a lot of extra room.

 

[ludville1]

Have both...no issues with either...

 

[HiMtnHntr]

If you are striving for weight savings and a more compact rifle (and ammo) for mountain hunting, a short action will help you get there. No, it's not much difference, but if a SA caliber suits your needs, they are a good option.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Action Sizes



I used to hunt upland birds with a now passed away WW2 vet. We both hunted with side by side 20 gauge double barreled shotguns



His was a Stevens/Savage with a one sized fits all action. Great at 12 gauge, okay at 16 gauge, clumsy at 20 gauge, ridiculous at 410.



My double 20 gauge was a Japanese made Ithaca SKB with the action tailor trimmed down for the 20 gauge. What a dream to carry, but you paid for this elegance and comfort.



Ithaca model 37’s pumps had two action sizes. I have one in 12, and a 20. The 20 is a pleasure to be afield with. The 12 is big, but my turkey gun.



I have had a bunch of pre-64 and later Winchester model 70’s. There was just one action size. In a 270 or 06 all was right, in a 243, it was just OK, in a 22 Hornet it was absurd.



Remington's went done the right road with the models 721, long action and the model 722 with the shorter action. I had one in the fine .257 Roberts. The problem with Remington's was their obsession with being cheap, to the point of absurd and even dangerous. To save 5 cents they compromised the original safety design and the rest is dark firearms history.



I thought they finally got is right with the shorter action Model 7, I had one in 260, until I wore out the cheap trigger, which was just a hard plating over cheap white cast metal. Beer can quality rifles that offer only accuracy while lacking integrity.



Savage 99 actions were a great match to medium length calibers but heavy and offered Ok but nit superb accuracy.



Over my 55 years of buying rifles one brand stands out above all the rest,,Sako,,and Tikka is not a Sako. I had a Sako Vixen in .222,with a petite action to fit. I had a Sako Forester in 338 WM.



Currently I have model 75 Sako Finn light in .308. It's action is not long enough for the accuracy “sweet spot” with the heaviest 30. caliber Barnes tipped bullets, which I just load directly into the chamber. I will not ask an incredibly excellent rifle to apologize for not being perfect.



What bothers me more about the more modern Sako’s is how “fat” they got when they went to removal magazine. It like it more trim right there for comfort of carry and use with a saddle scabbard.



That little extra width bulges a tad and bothers my knee when riding horseback with that rifle in the scabbard.



I always thanked whoever put that slim Shabbel for end on some model 70 and model 54 Winchester bolt actions rifles.



When all is said and done no rifle maker has been so committed to matching the caliber with action size as Sako.



Most hunter/shooters have far more rifles than they will ever ever need.



Were I starting over, I would own just three rifles, in three appropriate actions sizes. One for a .223, (Sako) one for a 7mm-08, (Sako) and a Pre-64 Model 70, Kimber or a long action Sako Stainless, in whatever full length caliber I deemed best,,probably a .270 or 30-06 or maybe a custom 280 AI

I have not the slight concern about buying used rifles by the way from reputable online dealers.



Better to invest in these fine few rifles than have one or even two “six packs” of various brands of “Beer Can” quality rifles.



MR

 

[noharleyyet]

The Sako short mags (SM action)feed like silk...the one expensive custom built on a 700 short mag makes me curse profusely. Sako SM actions are 20mm shorter than their Longs.

 

[nrpate05]

I don't think there is much of a difference. Sometimes short action cartridges do better with shorter barrels b/c they usually burn less powder (obviously not the case with the short magnums), so that could make for a handier rifle. I've also heard a short action can be stiffer, which may improve accuracy? Not sure one would notice, however. As far as 30.06 v 308, they shoot the same bullet, but at different velocities so the 308 will have less recoil, but also less energy downrange.

 

[RaiderRich]

I never bought into the short action throw being a big weight saver and faster cycling. Yeah in theory but when many economy rifles use a long throw even for short action rounds (Savage Axis, same action length just use a spacer to fit a short action magazine), it can become a mute argument.

I will concede that if you are going to be trekking 10+ miles in then yeah every ounce saved is a good thing when you have all you need hoisted on your back.

Fun debate.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

My Sako Finnlight in .308 weighs in at 6 1/8 pounds with a 20 1/4" match grade fluted fluted barrel. It gets 100'/sec more velocity from the same load as does my freinds Tikka with a 22 inch barrel. Match grade counts.

I use the old heavy original Sako optilock rings. It has a medium length action.

My Kimber Hunter in .28AI, with a trimmed down long model 70 long action and a pencil thin 24 inche match grade barrell weighs 5 3/4 pounds.

It is the onlly rifle I can carry a long and steep slung over my shoulder that does not "bite" me. It is a joy to carry.

Both will sub-moa at 100 yards.

For reasons which are found in the "Twilight Zone" I just love hunting with my old standard weight pre-64 model 70, which weighs a tad under the Titanic comapared to the others.

The best weight reduction is not in out rifls but in us,

Some years ago I made myself a new set of belts. I put in just two holes, One for summer, room enough for a iight shirt tucked into my Wranglers,,,the other for winter with heavy shirts tucked into thick wool pants.

When eating i do not confuses the seasons,,,,,and always keep my belt at the summer hole when sitting at the table.

 

[ImBillT]

Action Sizes



I used to hunt upland birds with a now passed away WW2 vet. We both hunted with side by side 20 gauge double barreled shotguns



His was a Stevens/Savage with a one sized fits all action. Great at 12 gauge, okay at 16 gauge, clumsy at 20 gauge, ridiculous at 410.



My double 20 gauge was a Japanese made Ithaca SKB with the action tailor trimmed down for the 20 gauge. What a dream to carry, but you paid for this elegance and comfort.



Ithaca model 37’s pumps had two action sizes. I have one in 12, and a 20. The 20 is a pleasure to be afield with. The 12 is big, but my turkey gun.



I have had a bunch of pre-64 and later Winchester model 70’s. There was just one action size. In a 270 or 06 all was right, in a 243, it was just OK, in a 22 Hornet it was absurd.



Remington's went done the right road with the models 721, long action and the model 722 with the shorter action. I had one in the fine .257 Roberts. The problem with Remington's was their obsession with being cheap, to the point of absurd and even dangerous. To save 5 cents they compromised the original safety design and the rest is dark firearms history.



I thought they finally got is right with the shorter action Model 7, I had one in 260, until I wore out the cheap trigger, which was just a hard plating over cheap white cast metal. Beer can quality rifles that offer only accuracy while lacking integrity.



Savage 99 actions were a great match to medium length calibers but heavy and offered Ok but nit superb accuracy.



Over my 55 years of buying rifles one brand stands out above all the rest,,Sako,,and Tikka is not a Sako. I had a Sako Vixen in .222,with a petite action to fit. I had a Sako Forester in 338 WM.



Currently I have model 75 Sako Finn light in .308. It's action is not long enough for the accuracy “sweet spot” with the heaviest 30. caliber Barnes tipped bullets, which I just load directly into the chamber. I will not ask an incredibly excellent rifle to apologize for not being perfect.



What bothers me more about the more modern Sako’s is how “fat” they got when they went to removal magazine. It like it more trim right there for comfort of carry and use with a saddle scabbard.



That little extra width bulges a tad and bothers my knee when riding horseback with that rifle in the scabbard.



I always thanked whoever put that slim Shabbel for end on some model 70 and model 54 Winchester bolt actions rifles.



When all is said and done no rifle maker has been so committed to matching the caliber with action size as Sako.



Most hunter/shooters have far more rifles than they will ever ever need.



Were I starting over, I would own just three rifles, in three appropriate actions sizes. One for a .223, (Sako) one for a 7mm-08, (Sako) and a Pre-64 Model 70, Kimber or a long action Sako Stainless, in whatever full length caliber I deemed best,,probably a .270 or 30-06 or maybe a custom 280 AI

I have not the slight concern about buying used rifles by the way from reputable online dealers.



Better to invest in these fine few rifles than have one or even two “six packs” of various brands of “Beer Can” quality rifles.



MR

Sako is the tip top. They really can’t be beaten without going custom. CZ is a very close second at a better price point. Sako does make Tikka, and Tikkas are accurate as can be right out of the box, but I wouldn’t claim that the two are equals. There has to be a reason that Tikkas are cheaper. Other excellent factory rifles are Kimber, Cooper and Nosler, but I still say you’re right, Sako is a standout. I’be never owned any Sakos newer than an L-579, but I’ve seen newer ones and know people who love them. If you’re not going custom, Sako isn’t really going to be beaten in terms of quality.

 

[EKYHunter]

Good thread.

 

[kiwi hunter]

personally i believe most makes of rifles are pretty accurate out of the box,,got a new baikal in 308 and sighted it in n then put three shots thru for grouping,,15mm,,just a cheap single shot, did have a tikka a while back but after losing the mag when pushing thru tight brush i got rid of it.one mans meat etc

 

[std7mag]

Barrels, stock make, rings being the same, you could see about 8 ounces difference between long action & short action.
So weight is a fairly moot point unless your looking for the absolute lightest rifle possible.

With most bolt action rifles having the locking lugs at the front of the receiver, i see stiffness as moot also.

And lets face it, your only saving a couple tenths of a second for someone experienced to run a short vs long action.

Which leaves us with actual cartridge length.
Your not gonna want a 30-06 in a short action. Can you single feed it? Yes.
Will it fit in the magazine & feed? No.
And forget ejecting a loaded round.

 

[old roper 42]

All I know about Tikka is that I saw a lot of factory Tikka 308Wins beating full custom 30x44s, 30x47s and tightneck 308s in Hunter Class Benchrest matches. I never saw one do better than 2nd place, but he’d have taken 1st place if I hadn’t shown up that day, and he usually shot a 30x47. In other words, they’re incredibly accurate right out of the box.

I like the idea of an adjustable bolt stop. I have a wildcat on a L/A that has a lot of extra room.

I used to shoot HBR 100/200yds and I start with Hammond build tight neck 308. Later I switch over to Speedy build 30x44/112gr BIB/1/19 twist barrel. He also build another one 30x47/118gr BIB/1/18 twist barrel. Actions repeater Kelby,HBR stock, 2 oz trigger,6x scopes. When I sold HBR rifles I kept 6x scopes.

It's one shot match you have to move rifle at less 5 times, 6 if shooting sighter target up/down sideways plus limit 6x scope.

One of the reason I quit shooting 308 was recoil vs free coil back then we didn't have joy stick. I'd shoot sigher first.

Are you shooting IBS?

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Sako is the tip top. They really can’t be beaten without going custom. CZ is a very close second at a better price point. Sako does make Tikka, and Tikkas are accurate as can be right out of the box, but I wouldn’t claim that the two are equals. There has to be a reason that Tikkas are cheaper. Other excellent factory rifles are Kimber, Cooper and Nosler, but I still say you’re right, Sako is a standout. I’be never owned any Sakos newer than an L-579, but I’ve seen newer ones and know people who love them. If you’re not going custom, Sako isn’t really going to be beaten in terms of quality.

I appreciate your positive words about Sako Rifles.



It took me nearly twenty years and having four different Sako rifles in three different action lengths, and also at various stages of design evolution to really get what Sako rifles are all about. The research, development and constant engineering improvements are not just slick but so functional.



I have had them in .222, 243, 338 and finally a .308 in a model 75 Finn light, which best examples a rifle in such high state of development.



There is a little hole on the back of the magazine well where, with an allen wrench, I can adjust trigger pull myself and so easily.



The factory length of pull is ½” to 5/8” longer. When shooting prone or curled forward shooting sitting with a sling, that extra stock length has spared me from having the scope kick back and cut me between my eyes. I have one small scar on top of another from other rifle brands with standard stiock lengths over the decades.



Knowing that so many of their rifles would be used in Africa for dangerous game they made accommodations for very low power scopes with no front bell. They made ultra low rings and reduced the upwards bolt throw by enough degrees so that it would not hit such very low mounted scope.



This entire combination allows using a scope to be as close as possible to the experience of hunting with iron sights. Scoped as described this rifle makes close running shots so much more successful.



Those optilock rings mounted to dovetail groves in the receiver allow changing scopes in a minute with no change in POI.



Next This .308 has a 1 in 11 twist which favors accuracy with heavier bullets, like the 200 grain Barnes. There is also a button to push which allows the bolt to opened with the safety fully engaged and the safety is so quiet yet positive.



The match grade barrels give tremendous accuracy, are so smooth they do not foul even with copper bullets, they shoot the same hot or cold, do not string and are stable after many shots, and finally, and I have mentioned this before, are so tight and evenly bored they deliver a surprising increase in velocity. 150 grain bullets in my 20 ¼ inch barrel goe100 feet faster with the exact same load in my friends 308 Tikka with 22 inch barrel.



Add in the left/right sided palm swell, which locks my hand in place like good grips on a pistol, plus those soft rubber non slip places on the pistol grip and for-end and that waterproof stock is a real all weather winner. I can break it down and put it back together without ant change in POI



I say all this because I do tire of rifle owners who judge the merit of a rifle solely on accuracy, which of course the Sako rifles have in spades. Throw in some Lapua Brass and Lapua bullets and this little carbine is almost a one hole-er.



15 years ago I paid $999 for this rifle used online. Best rifle I have ever owned. As far as the .308 caliber goes, that also took some time to fully appreciate that too.

I down load 30-30 barnes bullets for close range work on deer, the 150 grain TTSX are surpisingly fine at longer ranges 300 to 400 yards,,,and loading up hundreds of practice rounds, small game/rabbit rounds with 110 Mi Carbine bullets, while not the most accurate with the 1/11 twist, really allow me to be very well practiced with this rig. To many hunters/shooters never leave the bench.

Last thought,,,the Sako Sling swivels are the best too.

Happy Trails

MR