School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[Big Fin]

Damn Fin, that is a sad state of affairs. One more reason (that I really didn't need) for me to stay away from Wastebook.

If not for my family wanting to communicate on FB and the FB page I have for our platforms, I would be following your path to stay away from FB. I think I will use your term "Wastebook," as it is a very good description of the morass it is. Send me your address so I can remit any royalties I might obtain from use of that term.

 

[cgarner]

In reference to the point about the security guard at the school not stopping the shooting - for security guards to be effective you need more than one. The number needed would vary from school to school, but IMHO there would need to be at least one at every ingress and egress point.

People need to stop muddying the water with nonsensical examples and claims. Securing a school isn't impossible. Just look to daycare facilities. My son's daycare has one entry point and everyone has to be buzzed in. Is it full safe? no, but it is a lot safer than a system that lets people come and go at will. It has been a long time since I was in school, but my high school had numerous ingress and egress points. Times have changed and the way the secure out most precious members of society needs to change.

 

[rmauch20]

I will start this by saying I don’t care if if the “ gun show loophole” Is open or closed. Please explain to me how restricting private sales of firearms would’ve stopped any of the recent mass shootings. Most of the mass shootings that come to mind Sandyhook, Virginia tech, Pulse, and the most recent all the firearms Were purchased through an FFL and all background checks were passed. It wouldn’t of made any difference whether the gun show loophole is open or closed.Do you really think closing the gun show loophole would make a difference in Chicago or Baltimore?

 

[Big Fin]

Big Fin, thanks for saying something - I'm curious, what are the age demographics you see at the NRA conventions?

I hesitate to post much more that focuses on the 2A issues when I believe Lawnboy started this discussion as a way for folks to talk about what happened, how it changes their thoughts about the safety of their children or families that spend their days at a school, and possible solutions that a community of gun-owning folks might consider, rather than a discussion of 2A issues. That said, I'll answer below.

I am sure the NRA has true stats of members, so my observations are anecdotal. Observations in my time sitting at booths "shaking hands and kissing babies," you could make a lot more money selling canes, hearing aid batteries, and AARP memberships to that audience than you could selling baby strollers and family discounts for diapers and baby formula. I grew up in a very homogeneous part of the country and still live in a very homogeneous location. Again, it is anecdotal, but an NRA convention audience is not quite as white as the two feet of snow in my lawn, but close to it.

 

[Big Fin]

OK, if you want to insult me, I'll bow out of what I thought was a more-or-less adult discussion. Vikingsguy and RobG, you would be welcome at my hunting camp anytime, just understand that I may be hunting with an AR-15. It might be one that I made myself, in my shop, with no serial number on it. If you have a problem with that it is your problem, not mine.

I would ask that you not bow out. Different perspectives make for better discussion.

 

[rmauch20]

Something to keep in mind as well. Columbine happened during the assault weapons ban. It didn’t change or stop anything. And to date the deadliest school shooting ,Virginia tech, two hand guns were used.

Just for the sake of argument, i’ll use Sandyhook as an example. Let’s just say assault weapons ban had been continued. Basically meaning you cannot purchase an AR 15. Instead Mrs. Lanza purchased a Ruger Mini 14 which was still available during the ban. Lanza Still murders his mother and instead of an AR 15 he shows up with a Ruger Mini 14 that day, how would the outcome any different?

I don’t really expect anyone to answer this because it wouldn’t of been any different

 

[Doublecluck]

I hesitate to post much more that focuses on the 2A issues when I believe Lawnboy started this discussion as a way for folks to talk about what happened, how it changes their thoughts about the safety of their children or families that spend their days at a school, and possible solutions that a community of gun-owning folks might consider, rather than a discussion of 2A issues. That said, I'll answer below.

I am sure the NRA has true stats of members, so my observations are anecdotal. Observations in my time sitting at booths "shaking hands and kissing babies," you could make a lot more money selling canes, hearing aid batteries, and AARP memberships to that audience than you could selling baby strollers and family discounts for diapers and baby formula. I grew up in a very homogeneous part of the country and still live in a very homogeneous location. Again, it is anecdotal, but an NRA convention audience is not quite as white as the two feet of snow in my lawn, but close to it.

I think that is indicative of the area of the country the convention you attend is in. I have only been to one convention and it was in CA. Very diverse crowd. Currently I believe the NRA has about 40% women and around 40% minorities.

 

[Exhausted]

. . . Reality is, if we as gun owners want to have the 2A rights a generation from now, we better pull our collective heads out of our a**es and observe what is going on. Ignoring the spotlight events like this school shooting bring to the topic, the demographics and urbanization, gun ownership is going to shrink dramatically over the next twenty years. Don't believe me, go to an NRA national convention, a place with "people watching" opportunities that rival any Wal-Mart, and observe the age and whiteness of the audience compared to society as a whole.

Add issues like these high profile school shootings (and the huge media attention they justify) to the picture of aging/changing US demographics, and the 2A road ahead is going to be a lot rougher than the road traveled the last 100 years. Dumb a** memes on Facebook and similar false equivalencies that might get a laugh from the drinking buddies down at the bar is a short road to a lot more restriction on gun ownership.

The above CANNOT be emphasized enough. I keep saying to friends/family in person and I'll keep saying it here. If we, as responsible sportsmen and firearm owners, don't come up with real, and reasonable, solutions/suggestions , the other side is going to make the new laws without us.

I live in Broward County, about 15 minutes south of the school where the shooting took place. Our Sheriff, Scott Israel, is talking about banning certain types of firearms outright. At some point, our laws WILL change as an emotional response to shootings like this. I just hope that we haven't shoved our heads so far in the sand, and been so unmovable, that we lose even more of our rights that we ever thought possible.

 

[rmauch20]

I don’t think emotional decisions are good in really any scenario especially in law making.

 

[RobG]

Personally I am fine with closing the "loophole" because I don't believe it effects law abiding people. But my point, not necessarily directed at you, you were just the last one to post on the idea, was that the data does not necessarily suggest that ease of accessibility to firearms alone leads to more murders with firearms.

On one level, yes, but these mass shootings have a devastating effect on America far beyond the number of people who died. The increase is directly related to the accessibility and general acceptance of these AR-15 "type" rifles.

I'm just starting to recycle my comments from 300 posts ago. I'm going to do like Onpoint and say I'm going to bug out, and then probably keep getting sucked in.

 

[Big Fin]

I think that is indicative of the area of the country the convention you attend is in. I have only been to one convention and it was in CA. Very diverse crowd. Currently I believe the NRA has about 40% women and around 40% minorities.

Just from short memory, I recall attending NRA shows in Atlanta, Nashville, Indianapolis, Louisville, Phoenix, Charlotte. I spent time walking around town, dining in restaurants, seeing a few of the local sites. There was a vast contrast between what I observed inside the showroom floor and what I observed outside the showroom. Again, it is all anecdotal observation.

For my own understanding of history, do you recall what year the NRA National Convention was held in California. NRA brass equates CA with the anti-christ and I've been told they never have and never will hold a convention in that state. Would be helpful to demark the change in that position if you recall what year it was.

 

[Exhausted]

I am all for closing the "loophole" presuming it is done right. In my ideal world, there would be a website where, if I was selling a firearm, I could watch the buyer enter his/her name, address, SSN (encrypted of course), and birthdate that would then spit back a simple "transfer approved" or "transfer denied". Shoot, I'd even be willing to pay $5/search just to have the peace of mind that the guy buying my gun is legally entitled to do so. Even better, make the buyer pay for it. Right now I just require the buyer to have a CWP.

Also ideally, the above would not involve an FFL or anyone else and could be done on a phone, at a home computer, at the library, etc. Make that site available to everyone. Then just print a copy and save it for your records. How hard would that be?

Plus I think it accomplishes the task of showing that we're willing to work with others on "gun control". As said previously, it wouldn't really effect those of us already abiding by the laws of the land, but it would look really good to the public that we're willing to sacrifice something.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Something to keep in mind as well. Columbine happened during the assault weapons ban. It didn’t change or stop anything. And to date the deadliest school shooting ,Virginia tech, two hand guns were used.

Just for the sake of argument, i’ll use Sandyhook as an example. Let’s just say assault weapons ban had been continued. Basically meaning you cannot purchase an AR 15. Instead Mrs. Lanza purchased a Ruger Mini 14 which was still available during the ban. Lanza Still murders his mother and instead of an AR 15 he shows up with a Ruger Mini 14 that day, how would the outcome any different?

I don’t really expect anyone to answer this because it wouldn’t of been any different

But again, at times emotion and politics trumps logic. There will be additional gun regulation in the US over the next 10 yrs, just as 15 yrs ago it was clear the Feds were going to get heavy into medical care -- the choice for public land hunters is do we want to be part of crafting a compromise or do we want to just take what they hand us. Demographics are doing no favors to hunters and gun owners over the next 20 years. A ridiculously large percentage of our voting population will be urban with no personal experience with guns - not good for us. In the face of this reality, as a gun owner and as a 2nd amendment supporter, I would like to make some reasonable changes and get this issue down from boil to a simmer so future emotional voters can turn their attention to something else.

 

[Zach]

Take your pick... around 170 magazine fed semi-autos available on Armslist in Montana. No background check required.

http://www.armslist.com/classifieds...es&posttype=1&sellertype=1&tag=semi-automatic

Used to be that way in CO too, until the nutjob shot up a theater full of folks. Of course that was when he had purchased his guns legally through NCIS. Again, warning signs that were never followed up on.

 

[Exhausted]

But again, at times emotion and politics trumps logic. There will be additional gun regulation in the US over the next 10 yrs, just as 15 yrs ago it was clear the Feds were going to get heavy into medical care -- the choice for public land hunters is do we want to be part of crafting a compromise or do we want to just take what they hand us. Demographics are doing no favors to hunters and gun owners over the next 20 years. A ridiculously large percentage of our voting population will be urban with no personal experience with guns - not good for us. In the face of this reality, as a gun owner and as a 2nd amendment supporter, I would like to make some reasonable changes and get this issue down from boil to a simmer so future emotional voters can turn their attention to something else.

Agreed, 100%.

In short I'm a fan of three things right now.

Close the "loophole" like I said a couple posts ago.

Manage high capacity, semi auto, rifles like handguns (must be 21+ to purchase, etc.)

Create a level II CWP that requires additional training, annual renewal (with a fee), detailed background search, and mental evaluation/screening of some sort. But make it so that anyone who qualifies for the level II CWP can carry concealed everywhere except government buildings. If a teacher wants to carry, they can with a level II.

I don't know how those would be accomplished, but I think the first two would appease the "gun control" crowd and the last one would appease me, lol.

 

[Doublecluck]

The above CANNOT be emphasized enough. I keep saying to friends/family in person and I'll keep saying it here. If we, as responsible sportsmen and firearm owners, don't come up with real, and reasonable, solutions/suggestions , the other side is going to make the new laws without us.

I live in Broward County, about 15 minutes south of the school where the shooting took place. Our Sheriff, Scott Israel, is talking about banning certain types of firearms outright. At some point, our laws WILL change as an emotional response to shootings like this. I just hope that we haven't shoved our heads so far in the sand, and been so unmovable, that we lose even more of our rights that we ever thought possible.

I absolutely agree with everyone saying this because I have experienced it first hand. The only thing I would add is it wont matter if you come up reasonable common sense solutions. The agenda is set, the narrative is in place, the only protection gun owners have is the Constitution, which is supposed to stop 3 wolves and a sheep from voting on what's for dinner. I don't say that as a crazy tin foil hat wearing guy living in the sticks, I say it as a guy who came from a place where no matter how many times sportsman tried to unite, no matter who we wrote, rather it be on hunting, fishing, gun rights, development of wild places etc.. we were ran over by the majority or the money. I for one got tired of being a door mat. But it will be exciting to watch how it unfolds, hopefully my grandchildren will still be able to hunt with a bow. Cheers..

 

[Tradewind]

Personally I am fine with closing the "loophole" because I don't believe it effects law abiding people. But my point, not necessarily directed at you, you were just the last one to post on the idea, was that the data does not necessarily suggest that ease of accessibility to firearms alone leads to more murders with firearms.

Well, you should care at some point, because the last attempt to close "the gun show loophole" would end up with a lot of you being felons, had that legislation gone through. fortunately it was voted down, but It was written so that if my firearm of any kind, ended up in your possession without me being present I would, by the new law, be a felon and subject to all of the ramifications that go along with it such as no longer being allowed to own a firearm. Hope you like bow hunting.
So, for example, say you and I are going hunting or maybe coming back and we both drive but as we break up hunting camp my rifle ends up in your truck. No big deal, right. We'll just get the gear right when we get back to town at your place. except the game check station notices and now I am a felon. Insert the scenario for going to the range or where ever.
Gives you an idea of liberties they left takes when you are 'just trying to do the right thing."

 

[cgarner]

I think part of the problem with some of the proposed "sensible" gun control laws is that, alone the new laws wouldn't do much, and that is the only thing that ever gets proposed. We need someone in power that is in their right mind that can propose a slew of new ideas that when implemented together can actually make things better, instead of constantly beating the drum for more and more and more gun control. It seems like a constant one sided deal and i think that is why so many people are getting tired and so defensive with the issue is discussed.

 

[airlocksniffer]

I think part of the problem with some of the proposed "sensible" gun control laws is that, alone the new laws wouldn't do much, and that is the only thing that ever gets proposed. We need someone in power that is in their right mind that can propose a slew of new ideas that when implemented together can actually make things better, instead of constantly beating the drum for more and more and more gun control. It seems like a constant one sided deal and i think that is why so many people are getting tired and so defensive with the issue is discussed.

100% agree. Both sides yell the same thing every time this happens. A true collaborative approach is the only way forward. BHR would approve.....

 

[Doublecluck]

Just from short memory, I recall attending NRA shows in Atlanta, Nashville, Indianapolis, Louisville, Phoenix, Charlotte. I spent time walking around town, dining in restaurants, seeing a few of the local sites. There was a vast contrast between what I observed inside the showroom floor and what I observed outside the showroom. Again, it is all anecdotal observation.

For my own understanding of history, do you recall what year the NRA National Convention was held in California. NRA brass equates CA with the anti-christ and I've been told they never have and never will hold a convention in that state. Would be helpful to demark the change in that position if you recall what year it was.

Mid 2000’s Ontario convention center.