Recreational Shooting - Ethics question

[MTGomer]

I never knew target shooting was such a problem until I moved to Arizona.
Future democrat voters have trashed the desert away from the roads, as they head north, but target shooters have done their part to trash the roadside pullouts.
I would hate to see it completely banned because I don’t like going to ranges, but I can certainly understand when it is.

 

[Nameless Range]

I don't agree with the wholesale statements here. To me this is an issue analogous to something like the Smith River Permit system.

For years you could just float the Smith River in Montana. It came to a point where too many people were doing so to the detriment of the river and the experience of floating the river, and a threshold was crossed, so a permit system was implemented.
It didn't therefore follow that we should implement a permit system for all rivers. The same could be said for places where recreational shooting needs to curtailed or prohibited. If the threshold for a certain area is exceeded, and the land or the experience of those using the land is so negatively affected, then we should shut it down in those specific locations.

I shoot recreationally on public lands, and no one here is the wiser.

A friend and neighbor of mine, was once the Forest Supervisor for Arizona's Tonto National Forest, and in 2001 He was involved in the decision to shut down recreational shooting on 81,000 acres of NF around Phoenix. I've spoke to him about it and it is interesting. https://www.hcn.org/issues/210/10708


On a related note, I recently found out that it is illegal to discharge a firearm on State Trust Lands in Montana, if you are within 1/4 mile of an occupied residence. I don't think this is particularly enforced, but think of the implications. Most trust lands are 1 square mile in size. Many have residences within or on them. Many more have residences directly adjacent to them. If you draw a quarter mile buffer around everyone of those residences, you reduce the huntable acres of trust lands in Montana by hundreds of thousands. I don't know if a similar law exists for federal lands, but it would be eye opening if enforced.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It didn't therefore follow that we should implement a permit system for all rivers. The same could be said for places where recreational shooting needs to curtailed or prohibited. If the threshold for a certain area is exceeded, and the land or the experience of those using the land is so negatively affected, then we should shut it down in those specific locations.

I shoot recreationally on public lands, and no one here is the wiser.
/QUOTE]

I agree to some extent, my previous comment lacked a bit of nuance. Generally speaking it seems like target shooters who leave a bunch of trash are lazy, they don't want to use ranges because they don't want to have to plan ahead and get a membership or have to clean up after themselves at a range. To this end I think that banning all target shooting within 1/2 mile of a road is probably an effective solution, anyone who is willing to walk a half mile from a road is probably willing to pick up their brass and targets, and definitely won't be dragging out old appliances.

I'm not sure if the Smith River example is analogs as target shooting and trash seems to be a ubiquitous problem on public lands. It doesn't matter if a town has 500 residents or 100,000 if that jurisdiction doesn't have statutes regarding target shooting there will be a pile of TV, refrigerators, and beer cans riddled with holes on first public land pullout.

 

[Straight Arrow]

"How do we combat this littering associated with recreational shooting? Do we permit shooting on public lands?"

Those are the critical questions, Wyoelkfan. One of my pet peeves is continuously finding expended shotgun shells, bright orange fragments of clay pigeons (sorry folks, NOT biodegradable!), and other target trash all over the landscape on my state and federal public lands. It's not just occasional ... it's rampant! To prohibit recreational target shooting on public lands seems a strong remedy, but likely is the only solution as the population of irresponsible bad actors with firearms appears to be ever increasing.
Even with that solution, then enforcement costs and a need for increased numbers of established target ranges would be very expensive. My first recommendation is for increased educational programs and strict enforcement of littering violations, but even that is challenging and expensive.

 

[PrairieHunter]

There is a bunch of extra restrictions on state lands in Wyoming. You also can't hunt any agricultural/irrigated parcels that are on state lands. Really cuts down on some good hunting opportunities. If you go to this website http://gis.statelands.wyo.gov/GIS/OSLIGIS/StateLandAccess/ you can look at each individual state trust sections and tell if they have public access and then what the closures are on that piece of land such as nonmotorized only, no recreational shooting, no hunting, etc. (I use it with OnXmaps and turn on WY Sections that show range, township, and section numbers). This map has saved me a couple times. Hopefully it helps you out some. Also as a side note, I usually will question a sheriff deputy when it comes to anything public land, they don't know nearly as much as the game wardens in my experience and just do something when a citizen complains. So double check all this stuff to be sure you were or weren't in the wrong. You easily could of been totally legal but someone felt "unsafe" so they're complaining got a sheriff involved when you did nothing wrong. I've seen that a few times myself. Hopefully that link helps you out.

So true on the agricultural land. Do you know if you are allowed to walk across it as long as you are not hunting, or say along a fence line where there are a couple feet of non farmed ground to walk on?

 

[Sandpounder]

I think a couple of other state sections further east were closed for the same reasons. They got pretty ridiculous. My only idea for education and trying to help prevent the trash is just to lead by example. Its really commendable that you guys have helped clean up some of those spots. I need to help do that in the public area that I frequent. I think if people see you out cleaning up, at least some of them will have a pang of guilt and think twice about leaving trash. People know that it is wrong, but I think they just don't care. I should have finished reading Sandy Creeks post I guess so I would have just agreed with that one.

 

[sdkhunter]

I'm actually glad they limit the use of recreational shooting to specific areas... While some are going to be safe, consider backdrops, etc - many don't.... Last thing I want to have happen is out enjoying a walk with my kids, scouting, or whatever and then have bullets whizzing overhead... Believe there have been numerous accidents out on public land when people are out shooting and not being careful...

BLM to review land near Buckeye used for target shooting while it's closed for utility work

The Bureau of Land Management closed an area popular for target shooting around Buckeye near where Kami Gilstrap was killed by a stray bullet.

www.azcentral.com

I’m Tired of Getting Shot At on Public Land

When a hiker fears for her life, when they close portions of a national monument because cactus are riddled with bullets, it's time to do something about 'target practice.'

www.adventure-journal.com

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

gotta be all carbon neutral living in my van bra, don't you know your house and central air are poison

If I had central air maybe. I'm wood stove and no air conditioning.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

"How do we combat this littering associated with recreational shooting? Do we permit shooting on public lands?"

Those are the critical questions, Wyoelkfan. One of my pet peeves is continuously finding expended shotgun shells, bright orange fragments of clay pigeons (sorry folks, NOT biodegradable!), and other target trash all over the landscape on my state and federal public lands. It's not just occasional ... it's rampant! To prohibit recreational target shooting on public lands seems a strong remedy, but likely is the only solution as the population of irresponsible bad actors with firearms appears to be ever increasing.
Even with that solution, then enforcement costs and a need for increased numbers of established target ranges would be very expensive. My first recommendation is for increased educational programs and strict enforcement of littering violations, but even that is challenging and expensive.

The problem is that these areas are not, and can not be regularly patrolled by law enforcement to enforce the law. It's on the citizens to report and make the case for the law. Although it is easier with cell phone video citizens still have to report it. Which makes it almost impossible to enforce. Challenging and expensive to say the least!

 

[Wyo7]

So true on the agricultural land. Do you know if you are allowed to walk across it as long as you are not hunting, or say along a fence line where there are a couple feet of non farmed ground to walk on?

They way I understand it is that it's totally off limits. That's how I've always treated it. If you look at a map of them they have it completely blocked off and marked as closed. I know I ran into it in a few spots when trying to find places to hunt whitetail in around Wheatland.

 

[PrairieHunter]

They way I understand it is that it's totally off limits. That's how I've always treated it. If you look at a map of them they have it completely blocked off and marked as closed. I know I ran into it in a few spots when trying to find places to hunt whitetail in around Wheatland.

That's my understanding as well. The worst part is the person who leases the land hunts the agricultural land with paid hunters, but we aren't even supposed to be able to walk across it.

 

[wytex]

I understood it had to be planted or cultivated crops , not just hay meadows or irrigated land.
Good question for the land board.

 

[MTGomer]

I went to a country music festival this weekend attended by around 40k people. At least. On the way in, we drove by a public land shooting spot. It’s littered with mattresses, washers, and every other appliance. Great optics.

 

[WyoDoug]

I can't make an opinion on this one direction or another without fully knowing the issues surrounding this. There are valid arguments both ways. There is no law or no right that says you can do ANYTHING you want on state land. The state board is proper to determine individually with each land plot what goes on with each piece of land. My only concern is they do it with proper thought and public input and not based on big money.

 

[Ajax2744]

Well in Colorado all state land is off limits. It's effectively private. The cpw leases some of the land and opens it certain times of the year for hunting and fishing. But no target shooting is allowed. I'm luck to live 20 minutes from national grassland where we can go out and shoot. But there are sections of the grassland that have been closed because of excessive use and trash. But they did a good job of building a shooing range with benches and targets that keeps a lot of the trash out now. There were quite a few shooters that would go out and clean up the range during the shutdown. So I guess I'm pretty grateful that those that care care enough for the bad apples as well

 

[BuzzH]

That's my understanding as well. The worst part is the person who leases the land hunts the agricultural land with paid hunters, but we aren't even supposed to be able to walk across it.

That's a violation of the land board rules...doesn't matter if they have the lease or not, they cant hunt it either.

If I was in that situation, I'd hunt right next to them.

Fair to note that any portion of a state section that isn't an irrigated crop can be hunted, its only the actual portion in a row crop that is off limits to hunting via the land board rule.

Also, keep in mind, land board rules are not statute...they are rules.

 

[matt0550]

Which recreational users as a group leaves the biggest messes: hunters, backpackers, horseback riders, or recreational shooters? Hunters come in second in my observation, but it's a distance second. While there are many good apples among the recreational shooter bunch, too many rotten ones have spoiled the bunch. Many do not have an appreciation for the land and the things living on and in it. It's too easy to just pull off the road, make a big mess, and drive off. In IA recreational shooting is illegal on any public land open to hunting. This is a trend I hope to see expanded in the few remaining states where it is still allowed.

I know that conditions vary with region/location, but in Michigans UP, I encounter trash from these groups in this order - Shooters, BACKPACKERS, hunters, horseback riders. The area i tend to walk quite a bit has a trail running from the south shore of the UP to the North shore (Grand Island) a little more than 40 miles. The main trail is a hiking/horse trail and it is infuriating the amount of granola/energy bar wrappers, empty water bottles, piles of food wrappings at improvised fire site etc. strewn along this trail. When i walk the snowmobile/atv trails i find none of this. Admittedly, i find the most trash (either at fire/meal sites or target items) at the unofficial shooting ranges in that large expanse of the Hiawatha national forest. I'm not sure what the answer is, but i spend at least an extra hour or two of my own time cleaning up and hauling away the trash left by these ungrateful morons every time i go shooting - Im tired of it, but at the same time, I can spend an entire day out there, encounter no one and take my time working on load development without interruption.

I suppose i am reluctantly in favor of always allowing shooting on public lands where it can be done safely - I am also in favor of much greater penalties for littering (fines beginning at $10,000 would get these peoples attention - hell make it $20,000)

 

[Anyfish]

"How do we combat this littering associated with recreational shooting? Do we permit shooting on public lands?"

Those are the critical questions, Wyoelkfan. One of my pet peeves is continuously finding expended shotgun shells, bright orange fragments of clay pigeons (sorry folks, NOT biodegradable!), and other target trash all over the landscape on my state and federal public lands. It's not just occasional ... it's rampant! To prohibit recreational target shooting on public lands seems a strong remedy, but likely is the only solution as the population of irresponsible bad actors with firearms appears to be ever increasing.
Even with that solution, then enforcement costs and a need for increased numbers of established target ranges would be very expensive. My first recommendation is for increased educational programs and strict enforcement of littering violations, but even that is challenging and expensive.

Exactly! When did leaving empty shells and broken clays on public land become recreational shooting and not littering?

 

[Pucky Freak]

I am also in favor of much greater penalties for littering (fines beginning at $10,000 would get these peoples attention - hell make it $20,000)

You can have higher fines for littering, but realistically, how often would these ever be enforced? The dollar amount becomes irrelevant.

I suppose i am reluctantly in favor of always allowing shooting on public lands where it can be done safely

Creating plentiful hunting opportunities requires plentiful land. Recreational shooting can take place in a much more concentrated area, so from a safety and cleanliness perspective, designated shooting ranges make more sense. I get that this takes away from the convenience of being able to shoot anywhere, and shoot alone, but I feel it's worth the trade-off.

 

[matt0550]

You can have higher fines for littering, but realistically, how often would these ever be enforced? The dollar amount becomes irrelevant.



Creating plentiful hunting opportunities requires plentiful land. Recreational shooting can take place in a much more concentrated area, so from a safety and cleanliness perspective, designated shooting ranges make more sense. I get that this takes away from the convenience of being able to shoot anywhere, and shoot alone, but I feel it's worth the trade-off.

I agree with your position on "ranges" and yes you are correct - I'm all about being alone. What I really just need to do is purchase some wet low land, clear cut my lane and construct a decent gravel road through it and a tall berm so I can use it anytime I'd like.

As for the penalties- it's kind of like OWI...you dont see as many drunks being arrested nowadays, people go to the bar and most times know better than to get gooned up and drive home. The cost has become the deterrent. I think a guy gets his face in the paper and $20,000 fine for leaving a refrigerator in the forest after he was done shooting it probably tells that story a few thousand times.