Pup choices

[fmnjr]

You know my choice LOL. And, as a previous lab owner I would beg to differ that a Drahthaar cannot compete with a lab for a waterfall dog.I do a mixture of Upland and water fowl, and I really don’t think I could ask for a better dog.

Didn’t know you had a lab prior thanks for providing the contrast between the two

 

[fmnjr]

Writing off a Lab for uplands is absolute nonsense! They work great! My young Lab pointed up five pheasants last night ... and caught three of them ... one of those twice. She marked that released hen landing three hundred yards down the coulee and scooped her again. All wild birds on public land. She is unusual in that she's such a fantastic pointer (hunts more like a cat than a dog) but typical Labs work just as well for uplands. They are flushing dogs but they stay very close as opposed to the pointing breeds that are typically all over hell's half acre. There's never any trouble telling when a Lab is birdy and about to push one up! Pointing is really unnecessary. Late season birds especially will not hold very long for the shooter to catch up. And what fun is it trying to watch a pointing bird dog work in the next zip code? Labs don't require force fetch, whoa training, barrels, long leads, live birds, etc., etc. They come to you already packaged to go with just a bit of obedience work. And I mean just a bit. A Lab with an e-collar is wearing it for decoration ... or his handler should be wearing a dunce cap. There is a reason why the Labrador Retriever has been the top selling breed in the AKC for thirty years straight. They are top dog in the field and at home. Very pliable, very loving, very desirous to please, very hard working. What more could you want in a dog? Personally I have seen a few too many GWP and Griffons that I would not let anywhere close to my dogs. Too ornery. GSPs are nice dogs but can be high strung. They can't take the cold weather and can be marginal retrievers. English and Lewelyn setters are good upland dogs and wonderful at home but difficult to maintain with their long hair. Some are not great retrievers. I think a lot of people new to hunting write off Labs because they want to be different. I also like to follow the path least trod ... and I have (I also own a French Brittany) ... but for someone new to the game a Lab is the best answer.

Thank you O appreciate the great feedback

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Didn’t know you had a lab prior thanks for providing the contrast between the two

My buddy that just bought Finn’s half brother last year was a long time lab owner. Take that for what you will.

 

[fmnjr]

It's pretty bad ass. When I discovered it, I knew it was special.

You discovered hunting from horseback? Whoa

 

[MTLabrador]

Where is the corgi recommendation from @wllm1313?

 

[fmnjr]

Choices now narrowed to drat or lab. Another concern tho is that we live in suburbia and it is of course nasty hot here in vegas during the summer. Rest of the year is no problem. We don’t have the open space right out the door some of you are blessed with so we’ll have our work cut out when it comes to keeping our pup happy.

 

[BirdManMike]

Much of my family is in Vegas, and I spend a bit of time there.

My thought is that you *may* not have fun breaking the draat of chasing rabbits in the desert. Draats are hard dogs and very, very prey driven by reputation - not all I am sure, but all I have been around for certain. There are A LOT of rabbits, both of the Mr. Cottontail and Jack variety, around in the desert (sometimes - I know populations are cyclical). I emphasis *may*, of course, as they are all different.

Think about which you want the dog to do more - retrieve ducks or point birds. The lab is going to be your best retriever and, of the choices you originally listed, the worst at finding birds (save maybe the boykin - I know little of that breed). The draat is going to be middle of the pack in both categories.

Not trying to offend or deride anyone's choice in breed or dog, just offering my opinion on breed standard. Unless you are trialing and competing, it probably wont matter which breed you pick in the end.

My $.02.

 

[BirdManMike]

Also, just to add. Not all dogs of versatile breeds necessarily take to water. For instance, one of my dogs, a wirehaired pointing griffon, absolutely hates swimming, even to retrieve a down bird. They are all individuals.

However, no lab will ever refuse a swim.

 

[fmnjr]

Much of my family is in Vegas, and I spend a bit of time there.

My thought is that you *may* not have fun breaking the draat of chasing rabbits in the desert. Draats are hard dogs and very, very prey driven by reputation - not all I am sure, but all I have been around for certain. There are A LOT of rabbits, both of the Mr. Cottontail and Jack variety, around in the desert (sometimes - I know populations are cyclical). I emphasis *may*, of course, as they are all different.

Think about which you want the dog to do more - retrieve ducks or point birds. The lab is going to be your best retriever and, of the choices you originally listed, the worst at finding birds (save maybe the boykin - I know little of that breed). The draat is going to be middle of the pack in both categories.

Not trying to offend or deride anyone's choice in breed or dog, just offering my opinion on breed standard. Unless you are trialing and competing, it probably wont matter which breed you pick in the end.

My $.02.

One thing I'm learning about talking dogs with folks is that experiences vary widely.

Just as an example, I was reading up on Labs and came across this article: https://www.gundogmag.com/editorial/why-the-labrador-is-the-worlds-most-popular-bird-dog/175457

The guy who wrote the article goes on quite a bit about them being a multi-species dog.

Other folks, see above, state the same about other breeds.

We'll see, I'm keeping an open mind for now between the 2 choices we've limited ourselves to.

Whatever happens, we're excited about getting a dog. Me maybe more than the wife and son. I've never had a dog except for family pets growing up.

 

[BirdManMike]

Like I said, your breed choice probably wont matter for you. Regardless the breed, itll be your dog and will find you some birds and retrieve you some ducks.

Labs can find your desert quail just fine, and theyll retrieve ducks with gusto.

The reason I say 'worst at finding birds' is because they are not going to range for you and they, typically, are probably not going to hold a point for a long period of time on the off chance the dog is a fair distance away.

What this means is that you are going to end up walking almost as much as the dog. Wheras, with a big running dog like the GSP youve mentioned or the right vizsla, the dog has the potential, if you let it, to range a half mile out and quarter mile in either direction quartering then hold a point on gamebirds without putting too much pressure on them for the 10 minutes it takes you to close the gap. Youll end up finding WAY more birds as the dog covers quite a bit more ground than you.

I am not trying to push you one way or the other.

With the lab, youll have a much easier time training. Youll also may see success sooner. The wrong draat, one that is very hard and willful, may be EXTREMELY tough for a first time dog handler.

Again, breed standards are standards for a reason.

Good luck!

 

[AndyPOW]

Where will you be hunting? What species of upland birds? I've owned, bred and trained pointers, GSPs, wirehairs, drathaars, labs, chessies, and judged the rest. NAVHDA, member of their international board, run their training clinics, won the National Amateur Grouse Championship and the International Woodcock Championship with a pointer (Wynot Ace), that I bred and trained myself. What are your goals in terms of performance, temperament, house dog, kennel dog? How much do you think you will enjoy training? How many times per week will you spend 15 minutes training your dog, what grounds do you have to train on? Do you want steady to wing and shot? force trained to retrieve? You okay with sloppy work, or do you want the epitome of the sport? I've had GSPs that would break a window to get out to retrieve a goose. I've had drathaar I couldn't get out of the salt water in Maine in January if he saw birds on the water. I've had a bunch of crap dogs that I sold down the road to someone that would be happy with them. What I'm trying to say is sit down with a legal pad and answer those questions, then come back to the thread with what you have written down.

Birdmanmike has a lot of good things to say, especially about those German dogs being stone heads.

If you are hunting open desert you are going to need excellent confirmation, including feet, and stamina, since a dog worth turning loose in that country will need to cover a lot of rough ground. Most versatiles won't have what it takes, at least for me. . . but then I prefer a dog that fills the country and runs to the birds, not "windshield wiping" 50 yards ahead of me.

 

[mannmicj]

It's a lab for me. Just a great overall dog. Hunting, Friend, and Family Member.. They check every box.

Full disclosure. I am biased as well. I've owned them and been around many in my life.

 

[fmnjr]

Where will you be hunting? What species of upland birds? I've owned, bred and trained pointers, GSPs, wirehairs, drathaars, labs, chessies, and judged the rest. NAVHDA, member of their international board, run their training clinics, won the National Amateur Grouse Championship and the International Woodcock Championship with a pointer (Wynot Ace), that I bred and trained myself. What are your goals in terms of performance, temperament, house dog, kennel dog? How much do you think you will enjoy training? How many times per week will you spend 15 minutes training your dog, what grounds do you have to train on? Do you want steady to wing and shot? force trained to retrieve? You okay with sloppy work, or do you want the epitome of the sport? I've had GSPs that would break a window to get out to retrieve a goose. I've had drathaar I couldn't get out of the salt water in Maine in January if he saw birds on the water. I've had a bunch of crap dogs that I sold down the road to someone that would be happy with them. What I'm trying to say is sit down with a legal pad and answer those questions, then come back to the thread with what you have written down.

Birdmanmike has a lot of good things to say, especially about those German dogs being stone heads.

If you are hunting open desert you are going to need excellent confirmation, including feet, and stamina, since a dog worth turning loose in that country will need to cover a lot of rough ground. Most versatiles won't have what it takes, at least for me. . . but then I prefer a dog that fills the country and runs to the birds, not "windshield wiping" 50 yards ahead of me.

We'll be hunting primarily in NV, desert, high desert, mtns, all of it. We may occasionally go out of state as well. We have quail, chukar, ducks, geese, dove though we will probably be more focused on the first three on the list. It's highly unlikely we'd ever approach the type of involvement you have with dogs. Probably we'll be more typical in that we won't be out in the field nearly as much as you seem to be. The dog will also be a family dog that is in the house quite a bit. Like I mentioned, we don't have the open space right out the door. We'll be taking the dog out regularly to work him/her at the parks or outside town. It won't be a problem working with the dog 2-3x a week for at least 15 minutes. We want a dog that is trained well but we probably wouldn't be up to your standards in that area. Thanks for the points you've made, good stuff for sure.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Lots of great choices out there if you find the right breeder/line. But I must put in a plug for my all-time favorite --> the "English style" Lab. They are driven hunters and world-class retrievers - and manage to do so while being great house dogs the other 9 months of the year. Few breeds can best a lab for waterfowl retrieve. As for upland (the bulk of our hunting) they work great with grouse and pheasants. We end up hunting with a fair number of guys with GSP and the like and I have never walked out of a field wishing I could swap dogs. They have great noses, will retrieve downed birds in water (unlike a number of GSPs I've seen) and a fair number have a natural point that I personally like to hunt over. The only downside is early season they can run a little hot (of course on the flip side, they tolerate the cold very well). They are much calmer (especially as pups) than traditional American labs, 25 lbs lighter, cool blocky heads and are the classic all around family dog. But I'm not biased

 

[fmnjr]

Lots of great choices out there if you find the right breeder/line. But I must put in a plug for my all-time favorite --> the "English style" Lab. They are driven hunters and world-class retrievers - and manage to do so while being great house dogs the other 9 months of the year. Few breeds can best a lab for waterfowl retrieve. As for upland (the bulk of our hunting) they work great with grouse and pheasants. We end up hunting with a fair number of guys with GSP and the like and I have never walked out of a field wishing I could swap dogs. They have great noses, will retrieve downed birds in water (unlike a number of GSPs I've seen) and a fair number have a natural point that I personally like to hunt over. The only downside is early season they can run a little hot (of course on the flip side, they tolerate the cold very well). They are much calmer (especially as pups) than traditional American labs, 25 lbs lighter, cool blocky heads and are the classic all around family dog. But I'm not biased

Never seen an English Lab that I'm aware of. The standard labs I've been around seem to be amazing animals with unlimited energy, who like people and are great around the house. The comment about the early season hits home, it is flippin' hot here, even into October/November at times, and I could see a hard-working dog getting in trouble there. Glad you're happy with your choice of English Lab.

 

[fmnjr]

Fair warning on the vizslas. You might get one like this.
View attachment 161640

Love it, that's one dedicated pup right there.

 

[Panda Bear]

We’re in middle of sorting out what kind of hunt dog to choose. Our list of choices is lab, GSP, drathar, wire haired pointer, vizla, Boykin. Upland birds and ducks would be primary. Help us through the fun of figuring this out thank you.

You last thought or mention above is our first. We have had excellent hunting results with a Boykin.

They Flush and retriever ( water and field )---excellent blood tracking animals, excellent at distracting bears as well as an early warning that they are in the area, they are small and Quiet --this is important as they ride well in canoes. airplanes, sleds, snowmobiles. They are good house animals and easy to care for. I almost forget--they dont try to attack, skunks, porcupines, badgers, lynx, wolfs--etc, so are good dogs to have with you if running a trap line.

But as you can see by this thread and others, each of us have our preferences, good luck with whichever breed you choose

 

[Deleted member 20812]

There is no perfect answer to this question, only the perfect answer for YOU. Like Andy said, make a priority list. Don’t forget the non hunting stuff like shedding, size, demeanor, etc. How will the dog fit in with other recreational activities?

Focus on specifics for hunting. Not all waterfowl situations are created equal. Big water divers? Small stream mallards? Jump shooting? Decoys? Boat, big, small, kayak, canoe? For pheasants are you hunting ditchways with blockers or big CRP? So many variables will guide your choice.

The labs I’ve owned and been around didn’t have the same quality feet the Drahthaars I’ve been around do. I can hunt chukars 3-4 days in a row with no boots. You won’t do that with a lab. If chukars are going to be one of your priorities, I think you’ll be disappointed with labs. Not banging on them, they’re great dogs. I will say lab owners tend to be like Crossfitters.

Good luck in your search. I’d encourage you to go meet some breeders and see if you can watch their dogs work.

 

[OntarioHunter]

Choices now narrowed to drat or lab. Another concern tho is that we live in suburbia and it is of course nasty hot here in vegas during the summer. Rest of the year is no problem. We don’t have the open space right out the door some of you are blessed with so we’ll have our work cut out when it comes to keeping our pup happy.

I live in the city in Northwest Ontario in a house of less than 800 sq ft (exclusive of finished basement). Until last year I had three dogs: two black Labs and a Fr Brittany. We did just fine. I have a small fenced back yard but the dogs really aren't out there that much. Our winters are the opposite of your summers ... usually a couple of -50 days every year. So I have some experience with cooped up dogs. Buy a collapsible wire kennel and keep the pup in that during the days when you're at work. The pup will adapt very quickly and jump in the thing if it gets a treat. Don't put any water or food in there. Very soon it won't touch it anyway, realizing consuming food/water causes problems. Feed the dog and let it out when you get home. My wire cage folded down and slid under the couch. Very handy. If you have the permanent space available, an airline carrier can become a lifetime sanctuary for your dog. You'll want to keep the pup kenneled when unattended till at least 1.5 years ... or you will have a lot of stuff chewed up! This present Lab was a problem with that till almost age three. She sure turned out to be worth all the headaches though.

I cannot stress enough how important it is to live with that dog. I have hunted over many outside kenneled dogs and they were all, relatively speaking, haywire, no matter the breed. Mine can sometimes read my mind I think. And I can definitely read theirs. If my Lab Ellie had been an outside kenneled dog I can guarantee she would be worse than useless today. Instead I have a fabulous hunter and loveable companion.

 

[OntarioHunter]

If you are interested in an interesting hunting dog, consider the French Britanny. My little gal is an excellent hunter and so much fun at home. Lots of personality. Warning! Do not take your wife with you to check out those dogs or you won't come home without one.