New Mexico Privatization. Nuthin like it

[seeth07]

Yes you are right that year one after EPLUS is demolished, 13k tags goes onto the public draw and actually I bet tag numbers go up even further because now social tolerance doesn't want elk so the managers have to increase quotas to lower populations. After 5 to 10 years we will be right back to where we were which was a declining NM elk herd

 

[Khunter]

If you go back and look at the elk tag numbers I already posted, since 2019, every year the amount goes up in the public draw. That's the only number you need to look at because it's a direct result of EPLUS. The amount of EPLUS vouchers is actually slightly decreasing each year.

That is nonsense relative to the question of does EPlus take away otherwise public draw tags..

But at least you admit the EPlus tags ARE coming from the public draw and will land back in the public draw when EPlus eventually get the cram down it has coming to it.

 

[seeth07]

That is nonsense relative to the question of does EPlus take away otherwise public draw tags..

Tell us, if EPLUS goes away, do you agree the EPLUS tags will instead be added public draw tags? That is pretty much a yes/no question. What is your answer?

read up one post

 

[Khunter]

read up one post

I did and edited. you were too fast for me.

 

[TheTone]

I much prefer this method over using fish and game budget and taxpayer dollars to pay private land owners for "crop damage due to elk".

I’d guess landowners are making more money selling elk tags than most states pay out each for crop damage.

 

[seeth07]

I’d guess landowners are making more money selling elk tags than most states pay out each for crop damage.

"In 2022, the Wyoming Game and Fish Department paid $401,285 for elk damage"

"Wyoming spent more than $3 million to run its 21 department-operated feedgrounds in 2022"

Some quick math: Unit wide land owner voucher fetches 5k average and you have 680 tags to equal the same amount. Plus tax payers and/or WYF&G save 3.4M.

 

[seeth07]

I did and edited. you were too fast for me.

Yes, I understand that at tag allocation time, there is a set aside for landowners just like it was 2018 and prior. The point is though that over this time, the amount of actual tags to the public draw since 2018 has been increasing. More opportunity, more elk to be hunted yet here we are complaining about what made that happen. Would you rather be in Montana where quality and opportunity are decreasing?

 

[brocksw]

I’d guess landowners are making more money selling elk tags than most states pay out each for crop damage.

I can’t remember where I heard this, but it’s something like eplus tags collectively sell for something like double the total annual budget of the New Mexico game and fish department. And that’s just elk eplus tags.

Edit: if you include the guiding/outfitting side of that business it’s estimated at like 250 million.

 

[npaden]

Question. Is charging a trespass fee or leasing property for hunting considered privatization?

I just see it as a different means to the same end. Monetization of wildlife is happening in pretty much every state, New Mexico just just doing it in a more transparent manner that allows them a little more control of it.

 

[seeth07]

Edit: if you include the guiding/outfitting side of that business it’s estimated at like 250 million.

You really need to work on your math/research as that number isn't even close.

Even if every single one of the 13,600 EPLUS tags (which includes a very large portion of cow tags) got sold at 10k average, the total would be 136M. ANd there is no way all 13k tags are even being sold and there is no way the average is 10k

 

[seeth07]

Question. Is charging a trespass fee or leasing property for hunting considered privatization?

I just see it as a different means to the same end. Monetization of wildlife is happening in pretty much every state, New Mexico just just doing it in a more transparent manner that allows them a little more control of it.

How about Colorado Parks and Wildlife paying a lease fee to the state to allow public access on the state lands for hunting? That too is paying a trespass fee with funds that otherwise could be used elsewhere right?

 

[Khunter]

Yes, I understand that at tag allocation time, there is a set aside for landowners just like it was 2018 and prior. The point is though that over this time, the amount of actual tags to the public draw since 2018 has been increasing. More opportunity, more elk to be hunted yet here we are complaining about what made that happen. Would you rather be in Montana where quality and opportunity are decreasing?

F montana wildlife management. Irrelevant.

What you keep parroting is utter nonsense. The issue is many many thousands of elk tag privatized and transferable that belong to New Mexicans,

The trend in public draw tags parallel to the massive and well orchestrated and politically protected graft that is the EPlus set aside is the issue.

If next year public draw tags increased 25% because of elk herd increases and EPlus tags remained same level, EPlus is still an abomination that nees to go away. That is the point.

 

[seeth07]

If next year public draw tags increased 25% because of elk herd increases and EPlus tags remained same level, EPlus is still an abomination that nees to go away. That is the point.

How about that hypothetical in reverse? What if EPLUS is abandoned and every 5 years the amount of elk tags in the public draw decreases by 25% until eventually there are no tags? Is that acceptable for the duty NM has for preserving the wildlife for its stakeholders?

 

[brocksw]

I’d guess landowners are making more money selling elk tags than most states pay out each for crop damage.

This is where I heard it. New Mexico wildlife federation guys.

Hunt Quietly: Episode 119. Fighting for Our Future on Apple Podcasts

Show Hunt Quietly, Ep Episode 119. Fighting for Our Future - May 12, 2024

podcasts.apple.com

 

[brocksw]

Question. Is charging a trespass fee or leasing property for hunting considered privatization?

I just see it as a different means to the same end. Monetization of wildlife is happening in pretty much every state, New Mexico just just doing it in a more transparent manner that allows them a little more control of it.

Would you pay $20K for that private land access without an elk tag?

Edit: what I’m saying is the access is only valuable if you have an elk tag in your pocket. New Mexico is taking that tag from the public and giving it to the landowner, and offering nothing in return to the public. So it doesn’t matter if you’re paying for access, the tag, the outfitter, the landowner has 40% of the market cornered.

Now, if the split was 90% resident and 10% NR, or 85/15, or even 80/20, and NM landowners got 2%(like UT) or 3%(like NV) or even 5% of that NR allocation in “eplus codes”, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Nor would there be a huge public outcry that landowners are charging for access. That would be the landowners right after all, they own their land. But the public resident of New Mexico owns 100% of the elk.

So, just like outfitters in MT, it is on the landowner to sell (if he so chooses) that access to individuals or through an access program. Or maybe they just offer up access of their private land in exchange for their eplus tags. Regardless, they could have all the guided or DIY hunters on their land that they want, they could charge whatever they want for access, but they have to compete in a market of successful applicants with other landowners. Not get a set aside or a handout from the government that corners 40% of the market and requires that 40% do business with those stakeholders. All while every year thousands of resident New Mexicans (beneficiaries) don’t draw any elk tag.

The NR who didn’t pay for an eplus tag, and just drew in the random draw, could also CHOOSE to pay a private land access fee or CHOOSE to pay for a guide, or they can hunt public land. They have the elk tag(the most valuable thing in this discussion) and it’s their decision on whether or not what the landowner or outfitter provides is enough value added to make them open their wallet.

This system is rigged. The only reason any non landowning hunters support this system is because they can afford to play in it. But you can bet your ass if the shoe was on the other foot and this was the system in their own state, and they were of average means and couldnt afford to pay 20x-200x their resident tag fee, watching their own resident opportunity get sold off to non-residents, they wouldn’t be on here acting like it’s the greatest thing to happen to elk hunting since center fired rifles.

But hell, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe residents really like seeing almost half of their elk tags go to non-residents.

 

[sjl2012]

"Not get a set aside or a handout from the government that corners 40% of the market and requires that 40% do business with those stakeholders."

If we could get the majority of people to demand this in all aspects of the government everyone's federal taxes would be cut to 20% or less of what they currently are and we could all afford EPLUS tags. I wish everyone with this argument would substitute some other industry (preferably the one they work in) and say it out loud and then think about it. There are very few industries that aren't subsidized by the government in some way or another. That part is fact, we all just have different preferences on where it should go and who should get it.

 

[Nm252525]

How about that hypothetical in reverse? What if EPLUS is abandoned and every 5 years the amount of elk tags in the public draw decreases by 25% until eventually there are no tags? Is that acceptable for the duty NM has for preserving the wildlife for its stakeholders?

Got a lot of input on this subject. I hope you and tree shark are going to Wisconsin meetings pushing for nonresident allocation. With Wisconsin only have resident elk tags to draw you guys should be at the forefront of getting that changed

 

[brocksw]

"Not get a set aside or a handout from the government that corners 40% of the market and requires that 40% do business with those stakeholders."

If we could get the majority of people to demand this in all aspects of the government everyone's federal taxes would be cut to 20% or less of what they currently are and we could all afford EPLUS tags. I wish everyone with this argument would substitute some other industry (preferably the one they work in) and say it out loud and then think about it. There are very few industries that aren't subsidized by the government in some way or another. That part is fact, we all just have different preferences on where it should go and who should get it.

I agree with some of what you say, to an extent, but I still don't think it's apples to apples. Wildlife are a public resource, held in trust by the residents of that state. That has been decided in federal courts time and time again. That changes the parameters of your analogy. I work in the Oil industry, heavily subsidized. But landowners still have rights. Residents of my state still have rights. Oil companies don't just get to come in and write up the regs and the operating contracts. They have to compete with other operators, be good neighbors, clean up their messes, drill responsibly, pay taxes, pay their leases, pay their mineral owners, and follows regulations. Most of the subsidies they get, that I'm aware of, don't relieve them of those responsibilities or allow them to circumvent what that state decides is ok.

And if all hunters had an extra 6-10k in their pockets only for elk tags in New Mexico, undoubtedly that would mean someone else could just pay that much more, and there's nothing to say that the average price of these codes wouldn't double, or triple. That would almost be inflationary in nature.

That's the thing about opening this can of worms. Someone is always willing to pay, some executive in Texas or wherever, is always able to pay more than the average person, always. If every state with elk could just start charging 5k+ for their elk tags, they'd still likely sell out. Does that mean they should do it? Does that mean they should ignore all the resident beneficiaries they are responsible to and just sell to people who can pay premium money.

Privatization is a perversion of how we do things in this country when it comes to wildlife and hunting. What industries the federal government pays subsidies to is irrelevant to this conversation in my opinion.

 

[SAJ-99]

If next year public draw tags increased 25% because of elk herd increases and EPlus tags remained same level, EPlus is still an abomination that nees to go away. That is the point

I think I get both sides of the argument. I agree I don’t like privatization, as TOGIE and you say, but I also think it is a net positive that more elk are allowed on the landscape. New Mexico isn’t WY. It is much dryer and I would guess with the cycle of the grass you can’t run the same density of livestock. So elk can limit the stock grower more.

All that said, what is your alternative program to compensate the landowner? Or are you not going to do that at all?

 

[npaden]

Would you pay $20K for that private land access without an elk tag?

Nope. I wouldn’t pay $20K for a NM elk tag either. You can buy tags for the best units in the state for less than half that. You can buy fully outfitted hunts in pretty good units for less than half that. I feel confident that less than 10% of the landowner tags go for that price even including access and a fully guided hunt with room and board. I would bet that more tags go unused than go for $20K. To keep throwing out numbers like that doesn’t help your argument. At best it seems that you are trying to exaggerate things, at worst it seems that you are outright trying to mislead people.

A fully outfitted private land elk hunt with a tag in Montana, Idaho, Colorado and New Mexico are all going to run about the same price. You might have to do a little more planning in Montana and Idaho to make sure you have a tag but if you wanted to hunt elk on private land with an outfitter and wanted to pull out a checkbook you could do it in any of those 4 states pretty easily.

I’ve never purchased a landowner voucher or paid a tresspass fee for elk.