Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[BuzzH]

410 going to LE for mule deer bucks and no doe hunting on public land should help a lot.

You could use my proposal on the other side of the river. You have a LE bull or cow permit, no mule deer hunting in the same unit(s).

Too much opportunity and macro-management has finally caught up to Montana. For a while, because of the size of the state, you could out-drive the problem and go somewhere else, not anymore.

 

[YoungGun]

If FWP is hellbent on 11 weeks of hunting (plus shoulder hunts, trad muzzleloaders, etc.) - reverse the rifle and archery dates for deer season. Folks would either have to carry both a bow and a rifle into the field, or prioritize one species over the other, not to mention eliminating rifle tags for November entirely.

 

[8andcounting]

What’s the percentage of mule deer bucks that are killed by nonresidents in North Dakota? Does it even get close to 10%?

Honestly I don’t know . There are I think 800 NR any deer archery tags and most of them I would assume are filled on MD bucks . I’m in agreement with u . Caps are needed - but when I go to western Montana elk hunting and drive home headed east the amount of western Montana pickups I meet with trailers and pickup boxes full of mule deer is incredible . So I think we need caps for R also . Definitely more significant caps in R7 for NR no doubt

 

[bigsky2]

If FWP is hellbent on 11 weeks of hunting (plus shoulder hunts, trad muzzleloaders, etc.) - reverse the rifle and archery dates for deer season. Folks would either have to carry both a bow and a rifle into the field, or prioritize one species over the other, not to mention eliminating rifle tags for November entirely.

Are you saying have people out rifle hunting for deer while other people are simultaneously archery hunting for elk?

 

[DFS]

Honestly I don’t know . There are I think 800 NR any deer archery tags and most of them I would assume are filled on MD bucks . I’m in agreement with u . Caps are needed - but when I go to western Montana elk hunting and drive home headed east the amount of western Montana pickups I meet with trailers and pickup boxes full of mule deer is incredible . So I think we need caps for R also . Definitely more significant caps in R7 for NR no doubt

I tried looking, doesn’t look like they break it out even but doesn’t look substantial either way. Montana has been way too generous to nonresidents for way too long. Now we are reliant on their funding and don’t have the wildlife to sustain it.

 

[seeth07]

Right back to "its a NR vs R thing" ......again...

NR's - the ultimate scapegoat for all your local hunting woes. Out pacing wolves since 1995.

 

[TOGIE]

Are you saying have people out rifle hunting for deer while other people are simultaneously archery hunting for elk?

ever been to neat little place called colorado?

during september most units have this going on all at the same time:

otc archery elk or LE archery elk
muzzlerloader elk
early rifle elk
early rifle mule deer
muzzle loader mule deer
archery mule deer
rifle bear
muzzleloader bear
archery bear
archery moose
muzzleloader moose
rifle sheep
rifle goat

one overlap between elk and deer don't sound so bad to me in montana lol

 

[YoungGun]

Are you saying have people out rifle hunting for deer while other people are simultaneously archery hunting for elk?

Yes. And I can see where you're going with this, but don't see it as a major issue in several R6 and R7 units, where there's either very limited elk tags, or it's general elk with extremely low densities, (600, 640, 650, 670, 690, 701, 702, 703, 704, 705). Archery only deer in most of region 6 and region 7 from ~October 20 to the end of November would do quite a bit to decrease buck mortality and improve on age class. Not to mention it would spread hunter numbers out. If you've ever archery hunted for deer in Eastern Montana in September, you'd know how vacant that portion of the state is while the elk rut is in full swing.

Obviously I would like to see many different changes, and this particular suggestion is presented a bit tongue in cheek, but the point is, we need to either lower hunter numbers, or lower hunter success rates in order to improve on hunt quality.

 

[rogerthat]

Right back to "its a NR vs R thing" ......again...

NR's - the ultimate scapegoat for all your local hunting woes. Out pacing wolves since 1995.

I’m not interpreting the conversation that way. I think it’s just a reality that we have western state populations increasing rapidly, a wildlife resource that is static to down trending, and interest in western big game hunting at an all time high that the first thing on the chopping block will be nonresident opportunity.

 

[bigsky2]

ever been to neat little place called colorado?

during september most units have this going on all at the same time:

otc archery elk or LE archery elk
muzzlerloader elk
early rifle elk
early rifle mule deer
muzzle loader mule deer
archery mule deer
rifle bear
muzzleloader bear
archery bear
archery moose
muzzleloader moose
rifle sheep
rifle goat

one overlap between elk and deer don't sound so bad to me in montana lol

Maybe that works in Colorado. I’m imaging the HD’s in central and eastern MT that are already crowded in archery season as it is, then you add general deer hunters on top of that? It would be a disaster.

 

[YoungGun]

Right back to "its a NR vs R thing" ......again...

NR's - the ultimate scapegoat for all your local hunting woes. Out pacing wolves since 1995.

The number of times I've heard a Sconny resident complain about the tribes for their fishing woes.... everyone has their scape goat.

The point many are getting at is that the vast majority of non-resident hunters, and resident hunters, do flock to certain areas of Montana, and this needs to be addressed to correct over crowding and an over pressured game population.

 

[YoungGun]

Maybe that works in Colorado. I’m imaging the HD’s in central and eastern MT that are already crowded in archery season as it is, then you add general deer hunters on top of that? It would be a disaster.

I agree- there are certainly areas that come to mind such as the Custer where it would be an issue. However, the blue plates outpace the resident elk in Alzada, Glendive and Baker by magnitudes. Also a good opportunity to say that Region 7 hunt districts could and should be broken into smaller HDs for more precise, local management.

 

[Mountain Mule]

I believe tags working around the 17,500 for NR is a big issue. For instance, the FWP region 2 office was telling people that if they wanted their family members to hunt here in montana with them (despite them never residing in mondtana), all they would need to do is take a montana hunter education, and then they would be qualified to be a Come Home to Hunt candidate the next year. This is not only disingenuous to the initial intent of the program. But it also circumvents the NR cap for those that know how to play the system.

Likewise, when I was at UM, there were several students I know of that gained residency for hunting purposes while they lived here and attended school. The problem is, I know a few of them didn't revoke their residency after leaving the state and came back to hunt as residents in future years after moving back home. If it weren't for me and a couple of other students saying something, these people likely would've gotten away with this for years to come. FWP needs to do more enforcement and verifying of individuals residency status, especially those in circumstances that are likely to leave at the end of their business in montana (students being one example).

 

[sclancy27]

I believe tags working around the 17,500 for NR is a big issue. For instance, the FWP region 2 office was telling people that if they wanted their family members to hunt here in montana with them (despite them never residing in mondtana), all they would need to do is take a montana hunter education, and then they would be qualified to be a Come Home to Hunt candidate the next year. This is not only disingenuous to the initial intent of the program. But it also circumvents the NR cap for those that know how to play the system.

Likewise, when I was at UM, there were several students I know of that gained residency for hunting purposes while they lived here and attended school. The problem is, I know a few of them didn't revoke their residency after leaving the state and came back to hunt as residents in future years after moving back home. If it weren't for me and a couple of other students saying something, these people likely would've gotten away with this for years to come. FWP needs to do more enforcement and verifying of individuals residency status, especially those in circumstances that are likely to leave at the end of their business in montana (students being one example).

I've seen this a bunch too. I wonder how much it would cost to audit the resident licenses purchased against state income tax filings...

 

[seeth07]

Stolen research from @Gerald Martin :

"In 2021 there were a total of 186, 329 elk licenses sold.
There were 136,780 resident either sex licenses and 26,633 antlerless licenses.
Nonresident license sales increased in 2021 to 19,351 either sex licenses and 3,565 antlerless licenses for a total of 22,916 nonresident elk licenses.
In 2021 there were a total of 262,598 deer licenses sold.
Out of the total deer licenses sold, residents bought 159,816 either sex deer tags and 61,796 antlerless only licenses.
Nonresidents bought 27,477 either sex licenses and 13,505 antlerless licenses for a total of 40,986 nonresident deer licenses sold."

NR elk proportion? 12.3%
NR deer proportion? 15.6%

What proportion does CO give to non-residents? How about WY?

Maybe all of the NR are just super elite hunters that always fill their tags like @BuzzH does when he heads up to Montana each fall? Maybe that fact makes it seem like NR are the problem here?

Chop even every single NR tag and the problems won't magically get fixed is just the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Mtn-time]

The data was shown to prove that at the R4 season setting meetings. In 410, the increase in cow hunting pressure aligned with the increase in mule deer harvest.

This reminds me of some friends that hunted deer SE MT for years back in the late 80's and early 90's. They were at the time pretty bummed to be encountering more elk there each subsequent year, as they predicted that once there was a viable elk population for hunting it would change the deer hunting for the worse.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Stolen research from @Gerald Martin :

"In 2021 there were a total of 186, 329 elk licenses sold.
There were 136,780 resident either sex licenses and 26,633 antlerless licenses.
Nonresident license sales increased in 2021 to 19,351 either sex licenses and 3,565 antlerless licenses for a total of 22,916 nonresident elk licenses.
In 2021 there were a total of 262,598 deer licenses sold.
Out of the total deer licenses sold, residents bought 159,816 either sex deer tags and 61,796 antlerless only licenses.
Nonresidents bought 27,477 either sex licenses and 13,505 antlerless licenses for a total of 40,986 nonresident deer licenses sold."

NR elk proportion? 12.3%
NR deer proportion? 15.6%

What proportion does CO give to non-residents? How about WY?

Maybe all of the NR are just super elite hunters that always fill their tags like @BuzzH does when he heads up to Montana each fall? Maybe that fact makes it seem like NR are the problem here?

Chop even every single NR tag and the problems won't magically get fixed is just the point I'm trying to make.

100%

Pressure doesn't segregate between resident & nonresident. The budget does.

Keeping the widest view possible is important.

 

[YoungGun]

Maybe all of the NR are just super elite hunters that always fill their tags like @BuzzH does when he heads up to Montana each fall? Maybe that fact makes it seem like NR are the problem here?

Chop even every single NR tag and the problems won't magically get fixed is just the point I'm trying to make.

Can't speak to the super elite hunters, but they're not going home empty handed, either. Again, I think the point is that at 15.6% of the deer tag proportion is taking a disproportionally high number of mule deer, and doing so in a concentrated area, namely region 7. Residents are also taking a disproportionate number of mule deer from region 7. But to say that chopping "every single NR tag" wouldn't have an impact is also patently false. I haven't read a comment in this thread stating we should be asking for this, either. The answer will lie in dispersing hunters and managing hunt districts individually. This starts with managing regions individually, not just managing the overall state.

For those that don't like charts-2021 by the numbers:
22.6% of all harvested Montana mule deer were killed in region 7.
33.3% of all harvested Montana mule deer were killed by non-residents, who made up 21% of all deer hunters.
54.6% of all region 7 mule deer were killed by non-residents, who made up 44.6% of all region 7 deer hunters.

I added historical samples as well.

 

[YoungGun]

Region 1:

Region 2:

Region 3:

Region 4:

Region 5:

Region 6:

Region 7:

 

[Mtn-time]

If FWP is hellbent on 11 weeks of hunting (plus shoulder hunts, trad muzzleloaders, etc.) - reverse the rifle and archery dates for deer season. Folks would either have to carry both a bow and a rifle into the field, or prioritize one species over the other, not to mention eliminating rifle tags for November entirely.

I can already smell the stench from all the spoiled meat resulting from flip flopping the seasons.