Montana mule deer rant

[brockel]

Bummer you have to use it for that. Would be more fun to use that .17 cal muzzleloader you built and finish off the last few yard deer that most likely wouldn’t have made the winter anyway. Hunting is conservation and it ain’t over yet.

Don’t tempt me with a good time. I work an 8-6 schedule and have 5 weeks vacation

 

[SwaggyD]

I will be there but if you want to see how the local fwp will respond to any criticism. Two years of drought didn’t see that coming. Deer were dispersed so you couldn’t expect to see them, great range conditions they were there just not visible, then deer got congregated with the weather but in heavy cover to stay warm. Crunchy snow lead to less rutted up bucks running at people to get shot, age class was great! Or my most favorite f it the hunting was awful but I saw some people with their family so that’s cool. #tradition

You’re gonna be there? Are they having it at the bowling alley?

 

[brockel]

You’re gonna be there? Are they having it at the bowling alley?

Few beers at it might make it easier to stomach

 

[DFS]

You’re gonna be there? Are they having it at the bowling alley?

My data set is ready looking like buck to doe ratio is hovering around 5:100 and mule deer sightings on public around 1.87 deer per days, besides the ones that used to live in the yard. #glorydays. They are out there there.

 

[SwaggyD]

My data set is ready looking like buck to doe ratio is hovering around 5:100 and mule deer sightings on public around 1.87 deer per days, besides the ones that used to live in the yard. #glorydays. They are out there there.

The ones in your yard got hosed down by the neighbors hunters.

 

[DFS]

The ones in your yard got hosed down by the neighbors hunters.

Correct and I shouldn’t have considered them in my anecdotal public land counts either.

 

[520 Road Sow]

@brockel @DougStickney @antlerradar

 

[antlerradar]

@brockel @DougStickney @antlerradar

I may be the old guy in this trio, but my hair is not as gray as Steve Martins

I would gladly dress up in a sombrero if it meant I could see mule deer like those in Sonora.

 

[brockel]

What if we pitch October 1-31 general rifle then a two week break and then November 15-30 traditional. What better way to celebrate the traditional hunt with family than hunting the way the pilgrims did?lol

 

[DFS]

I think it’s just the local CAC many will say things aren’t good, staff will assure them things are good. It will be a waste of productivity. I doubt any ideas will be pitched around. You could literally do anything than what we are doing now and help deer. FWP staff doesn’t have any appetite for it. But I would support any talk of change. That doesn’t add on to what we are doing.

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

I think it’s just the local CAC many will say things aren’t good, staff will assure them things are good. It will be a waste of productivity. I doubt any ideas will be pitched around. You could literally do anything than what we are doing now and help deer. FWP staff doesn’t have any appetite for it. But I would support any talk of change. That doesn’t add on to what we are doing.

I'm a big advocate for going and saying it though. Maybe it will stick with a few other Montanans.

 

[DFS]

Honestly is mind blowing even the staff won’t admit they have a problem. It’s clear to me. Will be interesting how bad they will let things get, eastern Montana isn’t the relief valve any longer for a state that struggles to manage mule deer.

 

[cgasner1]

The crazy thing to me is the amount of people that are just ok with all this because it’s always been this way. What would love to see happen is rifle season broke in half and the back half become a draw tag that is limited. That way people can’t complain about not getting to kill bucks in the rut. Then the seasons need to go to pick your weapon. With the draw tags available in this state for deer I feel it’s created a massive bottleneck where a second rifle season could get people burning points. I also asked a warden this year during archery why the regs have the elk b tags in 3 categories and no one ever thought to do something similar with the doe b tag. His response was wow that’s a good question

 

[SAJ-99]

Honestly is mind blowing even the staff won’t admit they have a problem. It’s clear to me. Will be interesting how bad they will let things get, eastern Montana isn’t the relief valve any longer for a state that struggles to manage mule deer.

Unfortunately, you have to realize that Region 7 is the relief valve because almost a third of the entire state's mule deer harvest comes from the region.

This Chart is bugging me. Partly because of the glaring mistakes in interpretation, but it does show how FWP defines success. The line is Region 7 MD Buck harvest. The description bubbles keep referencing 'population'. It seems FWP declares victory because the Standard Deviation of harvest declines. And they keep equating harvest to population. My first reaction to data like this is something changed in the harvest estimation model.



The chart below is from Gohunt MT MD write up. They process the data so I don't have to. There is some overlap in years, but anyone with more than two functioning brain cells can say that drops of 50% and increases of more than 250% is not the definition of stable. Harvest reflects the change in population, from 2008 when total MD harvest was 15,183, in 2012 it dropped to 8,012, and 2016 rebounded to 15,932. My question is shouldn't FWP focus on population and not harvest, given harvest follows that? And shouldn't we focus on that as well?



Other crazy things about the data not on chart. In 2012, NRs shot more MD bucks than Rs. A positive is that doe harvest dropped... 6,189 in 2008, 1,072 in 2012, rebounded back to 4,278 in 2016. Great, but from 2016 on it doesn't show the same variability. In 2021, post very bad regional drought, we still shot 2,658 does. My conclusion is I would like to see more proactivity in the tags if they claim it works.

 

[sclancy27]

FYI, here's where you can access deer data for MT.... https://fwp.mt.gov/conservation/wildlife-management/deer

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

FYI, here's where you can access deer data for MT.... https://fwp.mt.gov/conservation/wildlife-management/deer

Nearly a 40% decline from average in a 3 year period for region 7. Nice...

 

[sclancy27]

Nearly a 40% decline from average in a 3 year period for region 7. Nice...

It's just under 50% since 2020. The droughts of 2020 and especially 2021 were hard on those deer.

Similar things happened between 2010-2012, but that was winter related.

 

[antlerradar]

Region wide data is nice, but it does little shed light the issue of lack of deer on Public land. No one would be complaining if the deer population trend on public mirrored that of private.

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

Region wide data is nice, but it does little shed light the issue of lack of deer on Public land. No one would be complaining if the deer population trend on public mirrored that of private.

We're adding that as a category for our mandatory reporting in Oregon. FWIW

 

[SAJ-99]

Region wide data is nice, but it does little shed light the issue of lack of deer on Public land. No one would be complaining if the deer population trend on public mirrored that of private.

Maybe you are right, but the MD population would be in even worse shape if there was a larger % of the mule deer population on public land. The private land is often a sanctuary.

I think we need to determine what we want FWP to manage to. Right now it appears they just manage to harvest. Apparently, harvest = happy hunters. I think it is realistic to ask them to manage to total population, or even population by unit. I do not think it is realistic to expect them to manage populations based on what side of the invisible property boundary they find them on.