Montana mule deer rant

[520 Road Sow]

I'm a bit late to this thread. Is the quality like it used to be? No way, however, I do know a guy who shot a mule deer buck last year that was in the high 190's/ maybe 200" on PUBLICLY accessible public land. So there are still good bucks out there if you work for them and also have a good amount of luck on your side.

There's always one or two of them..... every year. That's not the point.

 

[antlerradar]

I'm a bit late to this thread. Is the quality like it used to be? No way, however, I do know a guy who shot a mule deer buck last year that was in the high 190's/ maybe 200" on PUBLICLY accessible public land. So there are still good bucks out there if you work for them and also have a good amount of luck on your side.

The key part of this is luck on your side, Wasn't that long ago that hard work was all you needed. Now you also need to get real lucky, Soon even luck will not be enough.

 

[brocksw]

I don’t understand why so many people want to hunt mule deer in the rut. The bucks have lost a lot of their fat reserves, not near as healthy (good eating) as September/October and are really stupid. States like Wyoming that have a mule deer hunt in October has some really nice bucks roaming around in the rut, when they shouldn’t be hunted. The only thing dumber than a mule deer in rut is bighorn sheep, which Montana also allows hunting during their mating season. It’s craziness from a management standpoint.

The same reason people like hunting elk in the rut. It's fun. It's an awesome experience to watch mule deer rutting. I've spent countless hours watching a buck tend does and just acting like a mule deer. It's truly one of my favorite outdoor experiences.

I hunt the mule deer rut with a bow every year. I can hike all day and see deer up and moving, it's fast paced bow hunting where's it's advantageous to cover ground when searching for a mature buck. But stalks are still extremely challenging. I'd argue its harder to sneak up on a mature buck during the rut when he's surrounded by 10 does and 3 other bucks than it is in September when he's by himself. It's just much easier to find him in the rut vs September. I've never felt guilty or like less of a hunter because I'm targeting rutting mule deer with my bow. I can't think of many experiences that I truly love more than sitting within archery range of a herd of mule deer with a mature buck lip curling and pushing does around, waiting for an opportunity.

I also disagree with the table fare aspect. Perhaps my family and I have unrefined palates, but I've never had a roast from a rutting bucks that wasn't tender and delicious. If we cook it correctly, they are excellent every time. Steaks have always been tender. Hell, we even have a little grind in the freezer for tacos and spaghetti, kids eat it up and don't say a word.

 

[DFS]

The same reason people like hunting elk in the rut. It's fun. It's an awesome experience to watch mule deer rutting. I've spent countless hours watching a buck tend does and just acting like a mule deer. It's truly one of my favorite outdoor experiences.

I hunt the mule deer rut with a bow every year. I can hike all day and see deer up and moving, it's fast paced bow hunting where's it's advantageous to cover ground when searching for a mature buck. But stalks are still extremely challenging. I'd argue its harder to sneak up on a mature buck during the rut when he's surrounded by 10 does and 3 other bucks than it is in September when he's by himself. It's just much easier to find him in the rut vs September. I've never felt guilty or like less of a hunter because I'm targeting rutting mule deer with my bow. I can't think of many experiences that I truly love more than sitting within archery range of a herd of mule deer with a mature buck lip curling and pushing does around, waiting for an opportunity.

I also disagree with the table fare aspect. Perhaps my family and I have unrefined palates, but I've never had a roast from a rutting bucks that wasn't tender and delicious. If we cook it correctly, they are excellent every time. Steaks have always been tender. Hell, we even have a little grind in the freezer for tacos and spaghetti, kids eat it up and don't say a word.

That sounds fun I’ll bet it would be easier with a rifle in your hands. Might not even be fair.

 

[brocksw]

That sounds fun I’ll bet it would be easier with a rifle in your hands. Might not even be fair.

Certainly helps having a boom stick. The deer I could've shot with a rifle in my hand. But, that's why rifle tags take years to draw, even for a resident.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

Any pics?

Yeah I do have one but i'm not going to post it online as its not mine to post. If by some chance we ever met in person I'd be happy to show you.

 

[MTTW]

I'm a bit late to this thread. Is the quality like it used to be? No way, however, I do know a guy who shot a mule deer buck last year that was in the high 190's/ maybe 200" on PUBLICLY accessible public land. So there are still good bucks out there if you work for them and also have a good amount of luck on your side.

Just because big bucks have been killed in an area does not mean that they still exist there. I have seen this happen over and over and over. It seems to me that in our current situation when a big buck is killed it is often many years before it is replaced. If ever.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

Just because big bucks have been killed in an area does not mean that they still exist there. I have seen this happen over and over and over. It seems to me that in our current situation when a big buck is killed it is often many years before it is replaced. If ever.

While you may be correct in most instances, I have to push back a bit. I'm also not saying the state of mule deer in Montana is great either, but it isnt as black and white as people make it out to be. These broad statements saying "there are no good mule deer ANYWHERE in the state" or conversely the guys saying "there are good bucks to be had all over, you just have to work for them" is a oversimplification. Montana is a huge state. You cant paint it that the mule deer situation is the same all over the state. In eastern MT the situation is not good because the deer are for the most part very accessible (roads, relatively flat, glassable country, etc). Conversely there are some extremely remote and difficult to reach places that do still exist in our state. As a by product of that there is infinitely less hunting pressure in some of those areas and as a result the animals have a chance to reach a higher age class.

Another reason this is all not black and white in my opinion is private land. It plays a huge part in protecting the trophy class deer that still exist on the landscape. Those deer however, often don't solely live on private land. If a person was to have time, be patient and know where to sit, there's a darn good chance they could have a chance at a mature buck when it slips up and comes off of private.

Above I've laid out two different scenarios that would consistently give a person a good chance at a mature mule deer buck on public land.

With all that said I really would love to see the mule deer managed much differently. Personally I'd love to see most all areas of the state go to a draw tag that a person could draw every other or every third year.

 

[MTTW]

While you may be correct in most instances, I have to push back a bit. I'm also not saying the state of mule deer in Montana is great either, but it isnt as black and white as people make it out to be. These broad statements saying "there are no good mule deer ANYWHERE in the state" or conversely the guys saying "there are good bucks to be had all over, you just have to work for them" is a oversimplification. Montana is a huge state. You cant paint it that the mule deer situation is the same all over the state. In eastern MT the situation is not good because the deer are for the most part very accessible (roads, relatively flat, glassable country, etc). Conversely there are some extremely remote and difficult to reach places that do still exist in our state. As a by product of that there is infinitely less hunting pressure in some of those areas and as a result the animals have a chance to reach a higher age class.

Another reason this is all not black and white in my opinion is private land. It plays a huge part in protecting the trophy class deer that still exist on the landscape. Those deer however, often don't solely live on private land. If a person was to have time, be patient and know where to sit, there's a darn good chance they could have a chance at a mature buck when it slips up and comes off of private.

Above I've laid out two different scenarios that would consistently give a person a good chance at a mature mule deer buck on public land.

With all that said I really would love to see the mule deer managed much differently. Personally I'd love to see most all areas of the state go to a draw tag that a person could draw every other or every third year.

Yeah, maybe so, you probably know more about it than I do.

 

[SAJ-99]

This is old and has probably been posted here before, but still a good read. You can see the map of transects they do counts on, and it pretty clear there could be wide variations in population between areas.

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/montana-outdoors/mule-deer.pdf

 

[TOGIE]

Montana is a huge state. You cant paint it that the mule deer situation is the same all over the state.

I think one of the primary issues being discussed in this thread is that Montana FWP is basically doing exactly that.

 

[bigsky2]

Another reason this is all not black and white in my opinion is private land. It plays a huge part in protecting the trophy class deer that still exist on the landscape. Those deer however, often don't solely live on private land. If a person was to have time, be patient and know where to sit, there's a darn good chance they could have a chance at a mature buck when it slips up and comes off of private.

Yep, still a chance at a nice buck in this state if you hunt next to the right private. With some luck, a rut dumb buck who has entirely lost all sense of self preservation might follow a doe across the fence. Thank god we can still blast mule deer with a rifle during the entire month of November.

I remember the days when a person who hunted hard actually had a reasonable chance of consistently finding nice Mule deer bucks on public land. Those days are over IMO. It only happens with luck now. I think the percentage of bucks that are killed these last few weeks of the season is huge. A season structure that reduced or eliminated rut hunting would save a ton of deer and force people to actually hunt.

 

[tjones]

Yeah I do have one but i'm not going to post it online as its not mine to post. If by some chance we ever met in person I'd be happy to show you.

It would interesting to see.

Living in the Bitterroot I see a good number of the bucks coming out of the 4 LE units here. Very few are legit 190” or 200” bucks. Some years there are none taken.

Very nice bucks though.

 

[rogerthat]

Yeah I do have one but i'm not going to post it online as its not mine to post. If by some chance we ever met in person I'd be happy to show you.

To me one high scoring buck in an area being harvested doesn’t mean a lot regarding management. It could be a 3 year old with amazing genetics or a older buck that wandered off locked up private during the rut.

I know of a couple really big bucks shot on public in Montana this year, yet it was the worst year in Montana in these areas in regards to population and age structure since I have been alive and hunting. (30 years). So to me, those big bucks are just outliers of statistical insignificance when evaluating a data set.

 

[SAJ-99]

To me one high scoring buck in an area being harvested doesn’t mean a lot regarding management. It could be a 3 year old with amazing genetics or a older buck that wandered off locked up private during the rut.

I know of a couple really big bucks shot on public in Montana this year, yet it was the worst year in Montana in these areas in regards to population and age structure since I have been alive and hunting. (30 years). So to me, those big bucks are just outliers of statistical insignificance when evaluating a data set.

Agree, but it brings up an interesting question…What is the data set? Mature bucks (proxied by “4pts or better” in the harvest survey) , 170pt or better (doubt this could be measured) , trophy (know this can’t be measured).

 

[madtom]

Agree, but it brings up an interesting question…What is the data set? Mature bucks (proxied by “4pts or better” in the harvest survey) , 170pt or better (doubt this could be measured) , trophy (know this can’t be measured).

I would assume tooth ages would be the place to start

 

[SAJ-99]

I would assume tooth ages would be the place to start

I assume your data set would be average age of bucks? Good idea, but execution would be difficult. Problems I can think of include check stations are few and far between, tooth collection isn't mandatory, hard to compare to historical data (which is absent), and data sample is skewed because the biggest bucks are placed on the wall and people might not want to risk FWP ripping out teeth. That doesn't mean it is a bad idea. Interestingly, I think tooth collection for bears is mandatory (someone correct me if I'm wrong). But the general scope of bears and deer is way different and probably expensive. FWP would probably ask for a better "place to start".

 

[madtom]

I assume your data set would be average age of bucks? Good idea, but execution would be difficult. Problems I can think of include check stations are few and far between, tooth collection isn't mandatory, hard to compare to historical data (which is absent), and data sample is skewed because the biggest bucks are placed on the wall and people might not want to risk FWP ripping out teeth. That doesn't mean it is a bad idea. Interestingly, I think tooth collection for bears is mandatory (someone correct me if I'm wrong). But the general scope of bears and deer is way different and probably expensive. FWP would probably ask for a better "place to start".

If it were up to me, I’d put the management objective somewhere in the ballpark of >10-15% of harvested bucks >4.5. Many hunters will shoot the first buck they see no matter what, so average age isn’t a useful metric. I’ve been involved in enough tooth collecting to believe it isn’t hard to get representative samples if it’s an agency priority.

 

[antlerradar]

To me one high scoring buck in an area being harvested doesn’t mean a lot regarding management. It could be a 3 year old with amazing genetics or a older buck that wandered off locked up private during the rut.

I know of a couple really big bucks shot on public in Montana this year, yet it was the worst year in Montana in these areas in regards to population and age structure since I have been alive and hunting. (30 years). So to me, those big bucks are just outliers of statistical insignificance when evaluating a data set.

Got pictures?

 

[SAJ-99]

If it were up to me, I’d put the management objective somewhere in the ballpark of >10-15% of harvested bucks >4.5. Many hunters will shoot the first buck they see no matter what, so average age isn’t a useful metric. I’ve been involved in enough tooth collecting to believe it isn’t hard to get representative samples if it’s an agency priority.

Some of the data for the special hunt districts is WAY above 10% (which I thought was reasonable).

See attached link for AHM report for mule deer. Lots of data in there. I wish FWP would make it easier to see this data. Maybe create a data repository on the website?

https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content/assets/fwp/commission/2021/aug-20/wildlife/1a---ahm-2021.pdf

For the TLDR-crowd, here is a sample.

Special Management District History: HD 652 has been regulated by limited permit buck harvest since 1987. Post-season buck:doe ratios averaged 72:100 between 1992‒2020. Buck:doe ratios have ranged from 41 to 153 bucks:100 does from 2011‒2020. The number of limited permits issued results in approximately 50% success rate, regardless of number of permits issued. HD 652 post-season surveys started in 1992 and the trend area has been surveyed every year except 1993 and 1996. Since 2004, 79% of the bucks harvested have been ≥4.5 years old and in all but three years, ≥30% (average of 53%) of the bucks have been ≥5.5 years old. Although the population density objectives are being met based on the LTA, the minimum post-season density objective has not been met in 50% of the last 20 years.