Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[brockel]

Just a No good NR spitballing here but the biggest thing that most bitch about not wanting to give up is the Thanksgiving weekend tradition, correct? @brockel? @antlerradar ?

Most residents in my area think that before they give up their thanksgiving hunting that non resident tags should be eliminated. They think getting rid of the non residents will suddenly make the hunting what it once was. I see way more western Montana plates than out of state plates in the areas I hunt. With deer numbers out west tanked people have flocked to eastern Montana where there still was deer around. That’s changing now too

 

[8andcounting]

I see way more western Montana plates than out of state plates in the areas I hunt. With deer numbers out west tanked people have flocked to eastern Montana where there still was deer around.

I was hunting SW Montana for elk over opener/opening week , when I headed east and started towards home you would not believe the amounts of R pickups headed west with boxes full of mule deer doe’s , in many cases it was trailers full . It was crazy . I know some NR do this too but I’ve said all along the Montana R hunters are a big part of the problem.

 

[brockel]

I was hunting SW Montana for elk over opener/opening week , when I headed east and started towards home you would not believe the amounts of R pickups headed west with boxes full of mule deer doe’s , in many cases it was trailers full . It was crazy . I know some NR do this too but I’ve said all along the Montana R hunters are a big part of the problem.

Ya residents are just as guilty

 

[Nick87]

What about a two week season in early October. Then a four day Thanksgiving weekend hunt for R only and come home to hunt license holders? Still get there traditional holiday hunt. Possibly leave season open on private land for more of the season (trying to keep the outfitters and landowners somewhat less butt hurt)I know it's still gonna piss pound those bucks but it's not weeks on end. As a NR I'd have no complaints about hunting early October Montana deer in good herd condition than a rut hunt the way things are now. Gets your foot in the door?

 

[DFS]

You could do about anything other than what we are doing right now and it would help. Step 1 would be getting the local office to admit we need to change something. I can’t get past step 1. When numbers crashed after 2011 the accessible lands never recovered to previous populations. When this downward cycle ends we will be at a new low, private land will recover, outfitters and landowners are making the changes they need to to ensure that happens. MTFWP is not going to allow that to happen on accessible lands. That has been made abundantly clear to me.

 

[406huntermt]

You could do about anything other than what we are doing right now and it would help. Step 1 would be getting the local office to admit we need to change something. I can’t get past step 1. When numbers crashed after 2011 the accessible lands never recovered to previous populations. When this downward cycle ends we will be at a new low, private land will recover, outfitters and landowners are making the changes they need to to ensure that happens. MTFWP is not going to allow that to happen on accessible lands. That has been made abundantly clear to me.

All about that almighty dollar

 

[brockel]

What about a two week season in early October. Then a four day Thanksgiving weekend hunt for R only and come home to hunt license holders? Still get there traditional holiday hunt. Possibly leave season open on private land for more of the season (trying to keep the outfitters and landowners somewhat less butt hurt)I know it's still gonna piss pound those bucks but it's not weeks on end. As a NR I'd have no complaints about hunting early October Montana deer in good herd condition than a rut hunt the way things are now. Gets your foot in the door?

How about general rifle October. Nov1-15 youth rifle. Nov 15-the Sunday after thanksgiving traditional weapon. Let’s do it like the pilgrims did

 

[antlerradar]

Just a No good NR spitballing here but the biggest thing that most bitch about not wanting to give up is the Thanksgiving weekend tradition, correct? @brockel? @antlerradar ?

I really don't see a big surge of hunting pressure Thanksgiving weekend unless hunting conditions have been tough the rest of the season. I think the Thanksgiving tradition is more of a thank god I have four days at the end of the season to fill my tags because I couldn't get it done during the rest of the season kind of tradition. If given a choice of hunting the last seven days of the season or hunting the first four weeks, I am going to bet 90% of Montana residents would choose the first four weeks.

 

[DFS]

We are being told by mtfwp that this is what residents want, off of a canned survey that they know the answers to, by the way they ask the questions. The same agency that pumps out 11k doe tags where people can buy 7 of them. And their data shows doe harvest doesn’t make a difference anywhere. It falls squarely on mtfwp and their failure to adapt. I don’t know if it’s laziness or ignorance. Either way until mtfwp gets a clear message they are negligent at their job nothing is going to change.
Ending doe harvest on public land would be a good start, the adaptive management plan doesn’t allow that. You can offer solutions but mtfwp doesn’t have a problem so you are wasting your time.

 

[8andcounting]

We are being told by mtfwp that this is what residents want, off of a canned survey that they know the answers to, by the way they ask the questions. The same agency that pumps out 11k doe tags where people can buy 7 of them. And their data shows doe harvest doesn’t make a difference anywhere. It falls squarely on mtfwp and their failure to adapt. I don’t know if it’s laziness or ignorance. Either way until mtfwp gets a clear message they are negligent at their job nothing is going to change.
Ending doe harvest on public land would be a good start, the adaptive management plan doesn’t allow that. You can offer solutions but mtfwp doesn’t have a problem so you are wasting your time.

Now I’m probably off on years here a tad , so don’t throw me in the fire for that but , didn’t the Fwp shut down doe harvest in R7 from oh , about 2012-2014 ? I think there was a few years there they didn’t sell a mule deer b tags ? I think you could take one with your A tag but no b tags . I mean , it helped didn’t it ? So why not just go back to that for the foreseeable future and see how it goes ? Or at very least make them private land only

 

[DFS]

I went to a meeting in 2012 the public was concerned about the population crash of deer and antelope. They told us they were not into knee jerk reactions. They issued doe tags that year. I believe 2013 and 2014 they went to the most conservative management at their fingertips. In either 2015 or 2016 they declared a great mule deer recovery, maybe a knee jerk reaction as many of the publically accessible areas were not close to recovering. I would be shocked if they don’t go to the most restrictive management at their fingertips after their April counts. But nothing surprises me with them. They would be more than justified to go to buck only harvest and 1k doe tags.

 

[Bambistew]

Give it a few more years. When MT finally hits rock bottom there will be no recovery.

7-11:100 buck/for ratios are not ideal? Hahahaha half those bucks are 2 points. Hunting twice as hard just to kill a deer is a direct relationship to population.

Isn't there about 100k res deer hunters in MT? Only 12k in region 6?

 

[DFS]

Now I’m probably off on years here a tad , so don’t throw me in the fire for that but , didn’t the Fwp shut down doe harvest in R7 from oh , about 2012-2014 ? I think there was a few years there they didn’t sell a mule deer b tags ? I think you could take one with your A tag but no b tags . I mean , it helped didn’t it ? So why not just go back to that for the foreseeable future and see how it goes ? Or at very least make them private land only

Their “adaptive management plan” does not allow them to make doe tags private land only. Again they are not looking to solve any problems.

 

[huntin24/7]

Even in the areas left with good deer numbers, the accessible areas are getting completely ass hammered. Virtually every non resident, resident from other parts of MT, and the majority of the locals too are all hunting the same bma’s and chunks of state land that consist of maybe 10% of these units. Pretty crazy seeing the same single section of state land getting hunted over and over multiple times a day basically every day of season. Lol

 

[WanderWoman]

Their “adaptive management plan” does not allow them to make doe tags private land only. Again they are not looking to solve any problems.

Respectfully disagree. I asked one of the biologists who helped re-write the new AHM plan and his response was: “No, not that I can think of. Within each PMU, I believe there’s flexibility to allow B licenses to be available at one’s discretion (HD wide, private land only, portion of an HD, etc.) based on triggers, focused harvest needs, game damage, etc.” Also, in R4 there are B-tags valid only off National Forest lands in an attempt to focus harvest on private. They’re not entirely private land only at this point because in some areas of the region there are small isolated islands of BLM/State.

 

[El Jason]

Respectfully disagree. I asked one of the biologists who helped re-write the new AHM plan and his response was: “No, not that I can think of. Within each PMU, I believe there’s flexibility to allow B licenses to be available at one’s discretion (HD wide, private land only, portion of an HD, etc.) based on triggers, focused harvest needs, game damage, etc.” Also, in R4 there are B-tags valid only off National Forest lands in an attempt to focus harvest on private. They’re not entirely private land only at this point because in some areas of the region there are small isolated islands of BLM/State.

Correct.

 

[DFS]

Respectfully disagree. I asked one of the biologists who helped re-write the new AHM plan and his response was: “No, not that I can think of. Within each PMU, I believe there’s flexibility to allow B licenses to be available at one’s discretion (HD wide, private land only, portion of an HD, etc.) based on triggers, focused harvest needs, game damage, etc.” Also, in R4 there are B-tags valid only off National Forest lands in an attempt to focus harvest on private. They’re not entirely private land only at this point because in some areas of the region there are small isolated islands of BLM/State.

I must have misunderstood the wildlife manager I spoke with. I suggested private land only doe tags, and it certainly didn’t seem like it was an option in region 7.

 

[8andcounting]

I must have misunderstood the wildlife manager I spoke with. I suggested private land only doe tags, and it certainly didn’t seem like it was an option in region 7.

Then just cut them …. It’s been done

 

[DFS]

Then just cut them …. It’s been done

They are waiting for April counts to make any decisions, I will be surprised if they don’t. It’s a bandaid to a bigger problem if they do cut doe tags, I would think that would be an easy decision that should have been done last year.

 

[Sir Miss A Lot]

Oh my God Becky, look at that buck…
He is so big, [scoff]
He looks like one of those Bambi’s grandpas..
But, ya know, who understands why bucks grow so big? [scoff]
They think it’s just genetics, but,
There’s just so much more than that, ‘kay?

I mean, that buck, he’s just.. so.. big..
I can't believe he’s just so symmetrical.. he must gross like 170!
I mean, you’ve gotta consider weather and nutrition in there.. and that neck roast, look!

I like big bucks and I cannot lie
You other hunters can't deny
That when a deer stands up all outta his bed
With them brown things on his head you get PRONE

Want to pull up tough
'Cause you imagine that shoulder mount stuffed
Deep in the breaks he’s massing
I’m hooked and I can’t stop glassing
Oh baby, I wanna get wit'cha
And take a grip n’ grin pictcha

My homeboys tried to warn me
But that rack you got makes (you, you so horny)
Ooh, Region Seven,
Wanna be non-resident heaven?
Well, shoot does, shoot does
Goin’ home with an empty truck blows
Baby wants racks

I've seen him feedin'
On forbs and browsing seedlins'
He’s a buck, in rut
Lookin’ for some heads to butt
I'm tired of Eastmans’ magazines
Sayin' whitetails are the thing

Take the vocal Montanan and ask:
You want tags or you want big racks?
So, fellas (Yeah!) fellas (Yeah!)
Have you passed on that fork-horn rag? (What? Hell no!)
Tell 'em to ditch it (Ditch it!) ditch it (Ditch it!)
Ditch that general tag
Baby wants racks (trophies over opportunity)
Baby wants racks (trophies over opportunity)
(We want trophies over opportunity)

I like 'em wide, and big
A right ol’ Roman nosed pig
I can't help myself, I'm actin' like an animal
Now here's my scandal
I wanna get a doe
Double-up on does! Uh! A truckload full of does!
I ain't packing out two points
‘Cause ultralight load shelves aren’t made for toys

I want 'em real dark and heavy
So find that juicy double [lung shot]
Montana’s in trouble
Beggin' for a break from the grumble

So I’m lookin’ at what the surveys show
Below average counts, poor fawn ratios
But why the numbers so low?
‘Cause droughts and prairie winters kinda blow

Word to the residents, I get your hesitance,
Those mule deer need replenishmence
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna grunt (tube)
At the break of dawn
This buck’s got it goin' on

A lot of folks won't like this song
'Cause some guys like to gripe and mock,
And I'd rather spot and stalk
‘Cause I hike, and I’m like,
“I'm down to lace my boots up tight”

So, ladies (Yeah!) ladies (Yeah!)
Tired of overrun BMAs? (Hell yeah!)
Then turn around, lease it out
Even outfitters got to shout
Baby wants racks
Baby wants racks
(Crab-claws in the back but still a good rack)
(Crab-claws in the back but still a good rack)
Yeah, FWP, when it comes to mule deer,
CWD risk ain't got nothin' to do with hunter perception
Four by four with 20” inside spread,
Ha ha, only if he’s age three..

So your hunting buddy rolls a Can Am,
Usin’ it to check his trail cams
But your buddy can’t find a buck in that public land bedlam
‘Cuz big bucks don’t want none ‘less it’s secure habitat, son
You can use OnX and e-scout
(But please, so is everyone else)

Some hunters want to pick up sheds
And dream about the year ahead
The bucks drop ‘em, and leave ‘em
And we disturb winter range to retrieve ‘em

But does they need some fat
Well this drought ain't down with that
'Cause fawns born small when their mamas are thin
They’ll never grow up to be big in’
To barstool bios who say “genetics,”
There’s so much more to antler aesthetics
Big-bodied mista, can’t resist ya
Bitterbrush an’ clover didn’t miss ya

Some knuckleheads tried to diss
'Cause the science they all dismiss
They had a shot but chose to pass ‘im
And I pull up quick to blast at ‘im
So gents, if you’ve got buck fever
And don’t wanna just fill your freezer
Dial 1-900-MISSALOT
And kick them nasty thoughts
Baby wants racks