Minnesota Shotgun Zone going to Rifle

[Bonasababy]

Seems you didn't get that reaction. I'd venture to guess that most "bowhunters" are also firearm hunters and are just generalists take whatever opportunity that is given to them. I and near all of my friends that bow hunt hunt with guns as well. Lots of people love the opportunity to hunt without all the pressure/competition and that's just human nature but my primary gripe with the season structure is it hammers the age class.



Nothing about 3 years in particular, that just seems to be a rough age that many deer dont make it to in some areas. When mature bucks are basically non-existent on some landscapes it takes something away from the experience. Deer are easy to kill, especially with a rifle in the rut. If shooting a clueless rutted up 1.5 - 2.5 YO bucks in a sit or two is what deer hunting means to people I've got no bone to pick with that, I'm happy for them. The same could still be accomplished with a more favorable season structure like it is in neighboring states that have better deer hunting. I just remember waking up as a kid before hunting opener not knowing what might walk in front of you and dreaming about some awesome buck showing up. Now (and I blame cams/technology for this to a degree) there is no wonder about something special that might show up because that something special flat out doesn't exist in some places. If it was special it got whacked as a 1 or 2 YO. It takes some of the wild experience out of it when it's clear that the odds are so tilted against the deer that there is not any hint of natural age distribution.

It's like fishing a walleye lake where you can catch limits without much trouble but they never get over 15". Sure you can have fun and take a good meal but the whole experience and outlook would be better if there was a chance of tying into a big fish every now and then.

The big change cams brought to those I know and myself was knowledge of what is out there that we never saw before. And with that knowledge many pass up younger bucks knowing something nicer is out there.
This guy for example...


Showed up before and during gun and MZ seasons on heavily hunted public land. No one ever saw him. I passed up several slightly smaller bucks hoping hed show up that I would have gladly taken before cameras showed me what was out there.

IF he made it past wolves and the easy winter he should be pretty nice this fall.

There are some brown its down hunters still but as the average hunter age has grown older fewer of those.

 

[Bonasababy]

clearly they have better genetics to pass on once they reach 3 years of age! /s


That's an argument I've heard far too many times.

Yep, how genetics actually function is not well understood by many.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Opening weekend results at my place - Cameras showed 3 bucks this year (that were more than a one time passerby) that were 2-4 years old with 8 pts and more than a basket rack. I passed on a pretty decent 10 pt that walked directly into my wind/walking path and hardly changed behavoir he was so worked up. Neighbor shot him shortly after. A neighbor shot an 8 point opening morning that was one of the other 3. I killed the 3rd (best buck I had on camera) which had potential to be a real stud as he might have only been 3 and i'm guessing scores mid 140s.

No animosity towards anyone choosing to shoot what they did. It's just that the season structure nearly guarantees any decent potential buck is killed before maturity. I'm not sure what will be around worth getting excited about hunting next year. Something will probably fill the gap but we will see. I think in the big woods, big swamps, and some bluff country they have some means to avoid getting killed. In my area where its just mixed forest/ag and not much topography it's pretty hard for anything exciting to survive.

 

[BrentD]

Opening weekend results at my place - Cameras showed 3 bucks this year (that were more than a one time passerby) that were 2-4 years old with 8 pts and more than a basket rack. I passed on a pretty decent 10 pt that walked directly into my wind/walking path and hardly changed behavoir he was so worked up. Neighbor shot him shortly after. A neighbor shot an 8 point opening morning that was one of the other 3. I killed the 3rd (best buck I had on camera) which had potential to be a real stud as he might have only been 3 and i'm guessing scores mid 140s.

No animosity towards anyone choosing to shoot what they did. It's just that the season structure nearly guarantees any decent potential buck is killed before maturity. I'm not sure what will be around worth getting excited about hunting next year. Something will probably fill the gap but we will see. I think in the big woods, big swamps, and some bluff country they have some means to avoid getting killed. In my area where its just mixed forest/ag and not much topography it's pretty hard for anything exciting to survive.

Rifle hunting the rut it does not seem to produce great bucks, in my opinion.

 

[mntatonka]

I see plenty of big bucks get shot every year, there's always another one.

 

[BrentD]

I see plenty of big bucks get shot every year, there's always another one.

Not here.

 

[rjthehunter]

I'm glad they went to rifles. I tolerated shotguns, but would much rather use my rifles.

Next agenda items for the MN DNR
1. Re-open wolf season
2. Re-open moose season
3. Push firearm season either forward or backward so it doesn't coincide with the peak rut.

 

[mntatonka]

I'm glad they went to rifles. I tolerated shotguns, but would much rather use my rifles.

Next agenda items for the MN DNR
1. Re-open wolf season
2. Re-open moose season
3. Push firearm season either forward or backward so it doesn't coincide with the peak rut.

None of those are going to happen any time soon. The only one that even should is the wolf season, and that's entirely dependent on Congress and the ESA.

 

[BrentD]

I'm glad they went to rifles. I tolerated shotguns, but would much rather use my rifles.

Next agenda items for the MN DNR
1. Re-open wolf season
2. Re-open moose season
3. Push firearm season either forward or backward so it doesn't coincide with the peak rut.

I'd go along with the last one, only.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I see plenty of big bucks get shot every year, there's always another one.

What is big? Not uncommon to have years with zero big bucks in plenty of places. Some places have em every year. Regardless, there'd be a lot more of them if regs changed. I've run across quite a few people with land in both MN and WI with similar habitat and almost across the board their WI properties have better hunting.

 

[rjthehunter]

None of those are going to happen any time soon. The only one that even should is the wolf season, and that's entirely dependent on Congress and the ESA.

I agree, they probably won't. But they should. I don't know any hunters that don't want these to be implemented... Why is the wolf season dependent on congress & ESA? I thought the states owned the wildlife... Not like MN would make the right decision anyway, but still.

I'd go along with the last one, only.

The recovery goal for wolves was originally set in 1978 with a goal of 1,251-1,400 wolves. In the early 80s, the recovery goal was met. Later confirmed in the late 80s to be met. MN has been at or above it's goal for 40-45 years. We've been hovering around 2,500-3,000 wolves in MN for almost 30 years now, which is essentially double the objective. What does recovery look like in your eyes?

Moose populations have been trending upward (ever so slightly) since 2013. With a population estimate of 4,470, why not give out some tags. They give out 12 tags to shoot elk out of a herd of around 250. A wolf is the biggest predator to a moose. 65% of moose calf mortality was attributed to wolf kills. https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/moose/calf.html

It would open up 2 hunting opportunities in Minnesota, on stable populations of animals.

 

[mntatonka]

I agree, they probably won't. But they should. I don't know any hunters that don't want these to be implemented... Why is the wolf season dependent on congress & ESA? I thought the states owned the wildlife... Not like MN would make the right decision anyway, but still.



The recovery goal for wolves was originally set in 1978 with a goal of 1,251-1,400 wolves. In the early 80s, the recovery goal was met. Later confirmed in the late 80s to be met. MN has been at or above it's goal for 40-45 years. We've been hovering around 2,500-3,000 wolves in MN for almost 30 years now, which is essentially double the objective. What does recovery look like in your eyes?

Moose populations have been trending upward (ever so slightly) since 2013. With a population estimate of 4,470, why not give out some tags. They give out 12 tags to shoot elk out of a herd of around 250. A wolf is the biggest predator to a moose. 65% of moose calf mortality was attributed to wolf kills. https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/moose/calf.html

It would open up 2 hunting opportunities in Minnesota, on stable populations of animals.

States only own the wildlife that don't cross borders and aren't on the endangered species list. Unfortunately, wolves currently fit both of those criteria. Until they're removed from the list (and yes, I totally agree that they should be), the state can't do a damn thing. People need to quit blaming the DNR for not having a season when they legally can't.

 

[mntatonka]

What is big? Not uncommon to have years with zero big bucks in plenty of places. Some places have em every year. Regardless, there'd be a lot more of them if regs changed. I've run across quite a few people with land in both MN and WI with similar habitat and almost across the board their WI properties have better hunting.

and why do we give a shit about antlers? They're hard to chew, and the big buck craze has only caused issues with more and more land getting leased up, with no deer getting shot, which jacks up the population even more.

 

[MNElkNut]

Other states with rifles seasons do not seem to shoot all of the bigger bucks (well, I can think of one exception in a slightly different species!). In fact, almost all of the other states allow rifles. MN does well in B&S scores year after year.

Everyone should be able to fill their license however they want. Big, little, fat, skinny, doe, fawn have at it. Those that want to manage for big bucks, fantastic. If done right, can be a lot of fun and is very rewarding. As with anything, if done wrong it can create negatives. Same with the if brown its down mentality, it can be abused. We went to a 5 deer limit one year where we hunt. a big group of hunters shot over 70 deer and then complained about the population the next year.

I love the rifle season. Way, WAY, WAY more 1 shot kills this year and the only volleys I heard were shotgun volleys.

 

[mntatonka]

Other states with rifles seasons do not seem to shoot all of the bigger bucks (well, I can think of one exception in a slightly different species!). In fact, almost all of the other states allow rifles. MN does well in B&S scores year after year.

Everyone should be able to fill their license however they want. Big, little, fat, skinny, doe, fawn have at it. Those that want to manage for big bucks, fantastic. If done right, can be a lot of fun and is very rewarding. As with anything, if done wrong it can create negatives. Same with the if brown its down mentality, it can be abused. We went to a 5 deer limit one year where we hunt. a big group of hunters shot over 70 deer and then complained about the population the next year.

I love the rifle season. Way, WAY, WAY more 1 shot kills this year and the only volleys I heard were shotgun volleys.

I definitely heard a lot less followup shots this weekend, compared to previous years with shotgun only. I still heard 40+ shots by noon on Saturday, but there was only one or two instances where you could tell the hunter took a 2nd an/or 3rd shot in quick succession. The vast majority were single shots.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

and why do we give a shit about antlers? They're hard to chew, and the big buck craze has only caused issues with more and more land getting leased up, with no deer getting shot, which jacks up the population even more.

Why do people care about antlers? Why does MDHA (and the DNR, and everyone else) utilize big bucks basically any time they use deer images? Why dont they have a bunch of forkys and spikes? Why do people like catching 50" muskies more than 32" muskies? If you were in yellowstone, would you rather observe a 2 YO griz and a spike elk or the biggest bear and bulls in the park? People like to be around the peak of any species, we just kill most of them about 3 years before they could get there in MN.

I like hunting. If all i cared about was tagging a deer it'd be over in one morning most every year and I'd give zero shits about advocating for it. If the argument is that we want to keep our deer herd less desirable such that it doesn't get over commercialized thats a valid point but I'll continue to be unenthused about our "sporting" endeavors preventing the vast majority of bucks to make it to maturity.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

i'm in area 157. Volleys were at least as common as single shots.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Other states with rifles seasons do not seem to shoot all of the bigger bucks (well, I can think of one exception in a slightly different species!). In fact, almost all of the other states allow rifles. MN does well in B&S scores year after year.

Everyone should be able to fill their license however they want. Big, little, fat, skinny, doe, fawn have at it. Those that want to manage for big bucks, fantastic. If done right, can be a lot of fun and is very rewarding. As with anything, if done wrong it can create negatives. Same with the if brown its down mentality, it can be abused. We went to a 5 deer limit one year where we hunt. a big group of hunters shot over 70 deer and then complained about the population the next year.

I love the rifle season. Way, WAY, WAY more 1 shot kills this year and the only volleys I heard were shotgun volleys.

I'm not arguing against rifles per se, just that our season structure plus now rifles in more places, plus xbow all archery season, plus youth season, etc, makes the resource lesser than every state we border.

 

[BrentD]

I agree, they probably won't. But they should. I don't know any hunters that don't want these to be implemented...

You do, now. And there are a ton of others, but they are afraid to speak up in public because they get slapped around for it.

Why is the wolf season dependent on congress & ESA? I thought the states owned the wildlife... Not like MN would make the right decision anyway, but still.



The recovery goal for wolves was originally set in 1978 with a goal of 1,251-1,400 wolves. In the early 80s, the recovery goal was met. Later confirmed in the late 80s to be met. MN has been at or above it's goal for 40-45 years. We've been hovering around 2,500-3,000 wolves in MN for almost 30 years now, which is essentially double the objective. What does recovery look like in your eyes?

Moose populations have been trending upward (ever so slightly) since 2013. With a population estimate of 4,470, why not give out some tags. They give out 12 tags to shoot elk out of a herd of around 250. A wolf is the biggest predator to a moose. 65% of moose calf mortality was attributed to wolf kills. https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/moose/calf.html

It would open up 2 hunting opportunities in Minnesota, on stable populations of animals.

A moose population at this point is ridiculous.

 

[BrentD]

Moose populations have been trending upward (ever so slightly) since 2013. With a population estimate of 4,470, why not give out some tags. They give out 12 tags to shoot elk out of a herd of around 250. A wolf is the biggest predator to a moose. 65% of moose calf mortality was attributed to wolf kills. https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/moose/calf.html

It would open up 2 hunting opportunities in Minnesota, on stable populations of animals.

This is from the citation you listed. You substantially misrepresented the conclusions.

• Predation was consistently the leading cause of calf mortality during the study.
• During 2013−14 and 2014−15, wolf and black bear predation accounted for 65 percent and 16 percent of calf mortality, respectively.
• During 2015−16 and 2016−17, 69 percent and 15 percent of the calf mortality was attributable to wolves and bears.

Not all hunting opportunities are created equal. I see no justification in amoose season in particular.