Load Testing/Bullet Questions

[HiMtnHntr]

I would try to find the most accurate, highest velocity load you can. In my experience I've encountered great accuracy often times at near minimum loads and again about a grain below max to the max recommended load. Be careful with Hornady's manual with the 30-06 and the eldx. I have encountered pressure signs at far less than max loads in that caliber.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

Thanks guys. I'll work up some slightly hotter loads and see how things play out. I found where the node definitely is not (Higher end of the loads I tested) so I would estimate it to be right around the max like you all said.

Has anyone by chance seen any node research done that references percentages of powder in relation to nodes? I would think that if one were to find one node, you should be able to apply some sort of percentages in order to find the other ones... but I have very limited physics knowledge myself. I'll do some searching and post it if I find it.

 

[robloft]

What load did you end up coming up with that gave you the accuracy you were wanting?

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

What load did you end up coming up with that gave you the accuracy you were wanting?

Apologies for not seeing this earlier robloft. I haven't had a chance to shoot another batch of ELD-X's yet but I definitely will post how it goes once I get a chance to. I'm assuming and really hoping that I'll get another group right in that 1" range at a higher velocity.

Just a little curious what everyone else thinks about these groups:







I'm questioning the flier that exists in all of them. These are all with 165gr SSTs and H4350 powder, which I'm not really worried about. Think this could be a brass related issue? I shot them all from bags and they all felt like solid trigger pulls. I'm really pretty happy with the ~1" groups here with the 4 shots and think I can get a bit better with a different bullet, but the curiosity is killing me. I've read that you can just get a bad piece of brass every once in a while that can throw a shot, but have no way of measuring this besides observing groups. I should have marked the brass that flung the shots to look more closely and see what it does after the next shot.

The main thing causing me to question it is that the groups look nearly identical, including the flier... my biology degree is kicking in somewhere in the back of my head saying that this isn't a coincidence.

 

[cahunter805]

Ben

All those fliers seem to be the same. Could be any number of factors though. Seating depth can help greatly. Also proper trigger control, grip, cheek weld, rear bag contact and position.
Have you tried any groups from a bipod and rear bag?
Also have you loaded higher powder charges? Seems 59gr is about max book with a 165.
What is your brass prep procedure and sizing procedure?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Ben,

Is the flyer always the 1st shot or the 5th shot, or is it randomly dispersed amongst the 5? That may suggest certain root causes such as cold barrel or hot barrel.

Barrel temp aside, in general I would look at trigger slap, wrist torque, cheek weld or recoil flinch as possible explanations. I would also look for the front stud swivel touching the bag or rest as the gun is moved around by recoil throughout the string - as the gun tends to work its way back if you don't consciously slide it forward after each shot. The same can be for something making contact with the barrel. I am no expert, but if I were you, I would rule these out before I chased reloading causes.

 

[El Jason]

Are you cleaning between groups?

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

I've just used a front and rear bag and measure every single cartridge as far as seating depth goes. Definitely could be a person behind the trigger problem, but the trigger pulls all felt really good. I have tried higher powder charges and they didn't shoot all that great. Seems like this is the range for this bullet.

For brass I tumble them before sizing and after sizing in a dry tumbler and resize using a Lee sizing die following their instructions for it. I don't have a way to measure shoulder bump at this point.

The shots don't seem to be at any specific shot in the string. Otherwise I would definitely agree with a cold/warm barrel idea.

I did just free-float the barrel, so that shouldn't be the issue. But it definitely could be that the front sling swivel stud is hitting the front bag on some shots. I'll try removing it next time I shoot.

I didn't clean between shots at all. I cleaned about a month ago after a 25 shot test with my ELD-X's, but didn't before shooting these 25. There was enough cooling time between groups to be warm, but not hot to the touch.

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[cahunter805]

Ben

Seems like you’re on the right track. I personally don’t care for the Hornady bullets. Have you tried any accubonds? The ELD looked promising.
You need to concentrate on one variable at a time. Pick a bullet and load and try to fine tune it. If it won’t then switch a component.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

Ben

Seems like you’re on the right track. I personally don’t care for the Hornady bullets. Have you tried any accubonds? The ELD looked promising.
You need to concentrate on one variable at a time. Pick a bullet and load and try to fine tune it. If it won’t then switch a component.

I really have a tough time spending that much for accubonds at this point. I'm sure they're a great bullet, but I think I'll be able to get under an inch with the ELDs with plenty of performance on whitetails. I'm sure I'll get to them someday, but today's not that day...

 

[cahunter805]

The ELD will work fine on whitetails.
I see you started testing some ELD load. Have you found your powder node? Tested seating depth yet?

 

[ida homer]

I’ve shot 6 or 7 elk and deer with 160gr accubonds and the terminal performance was excellent on each of them. They are a bit more spendy tho.

A lot of guys love them. I shoot those and the SST’s. I will say I much prefer guttin and gillin animals killed with a bonded bullet vs. an exploder.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I get how the bullet price can really add up for for volume target shooters, but see it as fairly minor item in a hunting context. I fully respect that funds can be tight, especially for those with young families, but for hunting loads, bullet prices seems to be the smallest element of cost for the entire endeavor. On Nantchezss there is only about a 15-20 cent per bullet difference between premium bullets (like accubond or TTSX) and "cheaper" bullets. So if it it takes you 75-100 or so bullets to build a load from scratch including seat depth adjustments, and then a few for final zero, you spend 15 bucks more to develop a load with a "premium" bullet. After that you may only use 5-10 rounds a season (including seasonal zeroing) for many years (at less than $2 difference per season). If you spread the initial development cost across even just 5 seasons you are talking under $5 per season extra cost.

Of course in the end, most bullets chosen for the task and shot well will get it done and the critter won't know whether it was the 57 cent bullet that killed them or the 39 cent bullet, so folks should shoot what they like, but FWIW, I wouldn't use component cost as a big driver in a hunting application - I would pick the bullet my gun shoots best.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

I get how the bullet price can really add up for for volume target shooters, but see it as fairly minor item in a hunting context. I fully respect that funds can be tight, especially for those with young families, but for hunting loads, bullet prices seems to be the smallest element of cost for the entire endeavor. On Nantchezss there is only about a 15-20 cent per bullet difference between premium bullets (like accubond or TTSX) and "cheaper" bullets. So if it it takes you 75-100 or so bullets to build a load from scratch including seat depth adjustments, and then a few for final zero, you spend 15 bucks more to develop a load with a "premium" bullet. After that you may only use 5-10 rounds a season (including seasonal zeroing) for many years (at less than $2 difference per season). If you spread the initial development cost across even just 5 seasons you are talking under $5 per season extra cost.

Of course in the end, most bullets chosen for the task and shot well will get it done and the critter won't know whether it was the 57 cent bullet that killed them or the 39 cent bullet, so folks should shoot what they like, but FWIW, I wouldn't use component cost as a big driver in a hunting application - I would pick the bullet my gun shoots best.

I'm not really too worried about the costs and will end up picking up a box of accubonds from Scheels one of these days. They are decently priced on a lot of websites, but by the time I pay shipping it's definitely not worth the lower price. But while I'm figuring out what the heck I'm doing in reloading I like to keep things a bit less expensive.

cahunter - I did find a low velocity node at about 1/2" but will be working up a higher velocity load here soon. I just picked up shooting bags so hopefully I'll end up with an even more accurate group than that. I'll post up some pictures once I have a chance to shoot groups. Maybe even tomorrow depending on how much time I have to reload tonight.

 

[cahunter805]

Good luck and be sure to post the results.

 

[Kimber7man]

Don’t be afraid to try Ramshot Big Game powder in the ‘06 with the 168 Nosler Ballistic Tip - they say that specific bullet is very stout.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

Alright. Finally follow up time.

I continue to get three great shots in the groups with one flier to the left. These were all shot at 100 yards from prone on bags. I'm going to at this point just assume that it's shooter error or inconsistencies with brass sizing. The groups seem pretty decent and are entirely adequate for shooting anything out to 300 yards. I just wish that I could get at least four into the tiny groups instead of a consistent three. Frustrating! I'm going to be going with a max load of 55.3gr H4350 behind the 178gr ELD-X and call it good. I'll most likely end up doing some messing around this winter and spring with other bullets and possibly powders, but for my fall hunting this is what I'm going with:



Here's a couple others that performed adequately:

 

[cahunter805]

Ben

55gr actually looks better to me. Far less vertical. How far from the lands are you currently? I’d probably test some seating depths next and see if it tightens up any.

 

[OhHeyThereBen]

I actually haven't measured with an ELD yet for length and don't plan on messing with seating depth quite yet. However, it's surprising that you think the 55 is better. Just because it doesn't have the high or low shot? I was thinking that since the 55.3 had three stacked within about .5 inch it would be better?

 

[cahunter805]

Did you shoot 55.6? Were the 3 shots that grouped together at 55.3 consecutive shots or just part of the 5 shot group? Did you chrony the shots?
If you have time I’d recommend reshooting 55 and 55.3gr and also measuring your distance that lands. Seating depth IMO really is what helps shrink groups and create consistent loads.