Let the Fires Burn!

[Ten Bears]

I'm in support of BUZZ & 1Pter on this issue. I have little compassion for those that build million dollar homes in fire or flood hazard areas. Not only do I not agree to spend (not send) human lives to preserve their view, I don't like paying higher insurance fees for their lack of concern for themselves. I live in a community that is "flood prone", but my house is 200+ feet above the flood plain, yet I have to pay extra for the "danger" I'm in.

However, I do have some compassion for the $20,000 a year income family living in a shack on 5 acres of nowhere. But I'll give them a hand to rebuild after the fire. I'll probably even supply some of the materials. Town sites are another issue as well.

I lost a freind of many years, he was a firefighter, and he was sent to a place that was lost before he got there.

Like the saying goes "Buyer Beware", so goes "Builder Beware".

I just want to know how we're gonna address all the excess fuels that have built up from years of fire suppression.

 

[MULE]

Well then, if a person living in town, inadvertently starts a fire due to stupidity should the fire department stand back and watch it blaze?

If you end up on the wrong side of town and a gang of assholes is beating your ass should the police do nothing? Hey, after all its your fault. You should have known better than to be there.

 

[Michaelr]

I also have had the oportunity to work on several fires. Yellowstone, a couple over around salmon, one up by Mcall, and several smaller fires around pocatello and Idaho Falls.

On this issue I totally agree with Buzz and 1 pointer, Let them burn!! and for those who are foolish enough to build in areas where fire is a hazard, Tough Shit!! better have some good insurance and a fire proof shelter to store valuables.
No structure is worth a life.

 

[MULE]

No structure is worth a life but a tree is????

 

[Ten Bears]

MULE, I said town sites are another issue. Please refer to: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Town sites are another issue as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about the wrong side of town thing. Were you there on business, or just jackin your jaw?

I'm just kidding, but let's be objective here. I had another freind that was a cop, and he got knifed by the very woman he was trying to save. Seems she decided she didn't want the guy beatin' the crud out of her to go to jail. Go figure.

Towns should be protected, Ted Turners million dollar weekend cottage can roast.

MULE, I have more respect for you then most (mostly because you speak your mind).

 

[Michaelr]

fire fighters will not take, or be asked to take unnecessary risks to save a tree.

Thay are taking risks, and are asked, and pressured to do so all the time to save structures ...

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-19-2003 12:18: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>

 

[Ithaca 37]

Mule, Do you REALLY think we're talking about letting houses in town burn, or are you just trying to obfuscate the issue ?! Forest fires are a whole different situation.

 

[Lostagain]

"I just want to know how we're gonna address all the excess fuels that have built up from years of fire suppression." Ten.

I don't know, maybe they could haul it out as hogfuel to burn in electric generators. One byuse would be then less electricity would be needed from hydro so we could get rid of some of those dams. That also would put it to use as well as clean up the excess, but I'm sure many people will have a fit about it, you know, more roads, trucks, etc in our forests. That's right tho, our forests already are covered with roads so that's not a problem, just use the ones already there, no need for more. No need to build more roads into anywhere else, those areas could survive or burn on their own.

 

[MULE]

BINGO!!!

Being a first responder(Firefighters,police,paramedics,etc) is a risky job.

Matter of fact, that is why alot of folks are into it.

Protecting Lives and PROPERTY.

 

[Ten Bears]

Check out this site.
http://espn.go.com/outdoors/conservation/news/2002/0820/1420739.html

 

[BuzzH]

Mule, if my house catches fire in Laramie, I dont expect them to risk their life to save my house. I also wouldnt ask them to either. This whole sumbitch I live in could burn down, it would suck, but it would be even worse if someone died trying to save it. I have good insurance...it can all be replaced, unlike a life.

If you'd ever hit a lick on a wildfire or had to attend a funeral for one of your counterparts, you'd feel a whole lot differently.

I dont care what you say or how you try to defend it, risking lives to save structures in the woods is just flat bad business and it aint worth it.

I dont want to see another wildland fire-fighting fatality again...we just dont need it.

 

[Michaelr]

Mule,
Are you, or have you ever been a fire fighter?

Here is the key point in this issue.
recent studies by the Forest Service's research branch have shown homeowners can cut the chances their home will burn in a wildfire by up to 95 percent by taking the right steps. Yet most do not take the necessary steps, thus putting fire fighters into unecessary and dangerous situations.

It is the responsibility of the homeowner who chooses to live in an area that is prone to fire to take steps to make thier home safe.

 

[MULE]

Mike,

No I am not a firefighter nor have I claimed to be.

Good point about the 95% and I'm sure you are right, however what about the 5%.

One thing I do know is this. Fire fighting is a risky business. Wether it be a city fire dept or forest service hotshot.

So please tell me what exactly you see as justifiable risk.

Buzz,

You said you have fought HUNDREDS of forest fires. Hundreds is plural. Meaning multiples of a hundred. So in the minimum you are saying you have fought at least 200 forest fires. Thats quite a bunch. How many years have you been fighting forest fires?

 

[BuzzH]

Mule, even though I dont have anything to prove to you, just this once I'll do it.

Also, I actually said, "on the hundred plus wildfires I've fought" I didnt say hundreds.

I started with the FS in 1987 working in Idaho. I fought fire every summer between 1987 and 1994. During the summer of 1988 I initial attacked 22 fires over 25 acres in size as well as a bunch of smaller ones. Included in that total is a couple real gobblers...yellowstone and the scapegoat fires. Every year I got on at least 15 fires. Some years were more, like 89, 91, and 94 when I know I had over 25 in each of those years. I fought lots of fire in MT, ID, AZ, NM, and Utah.

While I certainly havent seen it all with regard to fire, be sure that I sure as hell have seen my share of flame and sucked plenty of smoke. I put a bend in my back and played "pulaski motor" to pay my way through college...and a few years beyond that.

So, if you feel my experience is lacking on fighting wildland fires, I'd say you're wrong. But exactly how many I was on, I couldnt quote you an exact number. Thusly, I tried to be conservative and just say 100 plus.

 

[Michaelr]

Mule,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So please tell me what exactly you see as justifiable risk. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is a good question. I would say that anytime a firefighter is lost trying to save a structure you have went beyond justifiable.

Each situation and each fire offer different circumstances, It is up to the crew boss to ensure that he gets his crew out of dangerous situations where they may be killed.

Now if there were people who were trapped or something and they needed rescued then I would have no problem stepping into harms way. risk a life to save a life.
the ones that are on their own are the homeowners who have been told to get out and the choose to stay and try to save their home.
Why should a fire fighter have to risk his neck saving somebody that has been told to evacuate but refuses and ends up in the oven??

The 5% are probably people who have built their homes in places they shouldn't be in the first place.
My take is that I have a wife and 2 beautiful little kids at home who depend on me. And I will not put myself in a situation where I may be killed just to save a structure. It is only a structure we are talking about. Not our freedom, or our lives. Homes have insurance that can replace them. Nothing can replace ME for my family.

Mule are you going to except the challenge??
read the challenge post if you haven't already.

 

[MULE]

Buzz,

My bad. That was what you said. And thanks for answering my question.

Now I'm sure you would agree that firefighters risk their lives when they fight fires.

So my question is what were you risking your life for?

I know it couldn't have been the money as you pointed out how shitty the pay is.

There must have been something about it that justified your risk.

 

[MULE]

Mike yes I have accepted the challenge.

Matter of fact I stopped the name calling DAYS ago.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Mule, have you seen the places some people build their homes? It's crazy. Well I guess if you've never fought wildland fires you probably don't understand what a fire prone area is and what is not. Most people don't. Most fires are fought not to protect trees, as you seem to think, but to keep the fire from getting too big and burning structures and going through towns. There are times, depending mainly on the weather, that all you can do is stay out of the way and let it burn. Usually fire lines are built way out in front of the fire, so the risk is minimal. But when structures are involved they tend to be willing to risk more lives, and that is what everybody is saying is wrong. Those people who CHOOSE to build a house in a forest, that they KNOW is going to burn, should not expect anybody to risk their life to save that house. I agree with the others on here that don't feel sorry for these people. It's like building a house next to a river that is known to flood at regular intervals. IF they lose their house, too bad! And what really pisses me off, is the government always steps in and gives these people money to rebuild their homes! Isn't that what insurance is for? I do wonder if anybody is telling these morons with houses in the woods, that their house will burn down eventually unless they clear a large area around it. But really, there is no exuse for stupidity

 

[BuzzH]

Mule, while I agree fighting fire is dangerous, you surely can reduce the risk by using the noggin. That said, whenever I was in doubt, it burned. You can always catch it later. There is a certain amount of risk I was willing to accept while on the line. The money wasnt bad, it paid my entire college tuition and I dont regret one minute of it.

There is no way, with the amount of publicity thats been put on the TV, Radio, etc. etc. that people dont realize the risks of living in the woods. If they choose to ignore the ways to fix it, well, like I said before, tough luck, you lose your house.

Its unacceptable and unrealistic to expect people to risk their lives to save your house...I wont do it, and I dont think most normal people would.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Here’s the perspective of a pretty new wildland firefighter on this subject, especially as taught in all the classes I have been taking…
There are no structures or pieces of ground that are worth any fire fighters lives.
!!!NONE!!!
When people build their houses in the brush, or in chutes, or box canyons, how far can one possibly go to get their house saved? I will absolutely say, not far enough to bother with. We have to take the amount of effort the homeowner has put into protection as a first indicator of whether we even try. It they have brush growing over the house, firewood stacked against it, wood shake roof, and wood siding to the ground. That one is totally not even worth a second glance.
If we come across one that has a large green yard, metal roof, debris around the house cleaned up and lots of access to water, that is a given for one to help save, as long as we have good access in and out. Not a hard concept, the ones in the middle of these scenarios are the ones that it takes some experience to know if they can be saved or if we just jump in the trucks and move to the next one. We have to use our own judgment, and if that judgment says's there is even some medium degree of difficulty trying to save the structure or piece of ground!!! "MOVE ON" !!!
!!!I LOVE THIS STUFF!!!
And want to do it for many years...
Here is some pics to show a little of it..

http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/Temp/image002.jpg

http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/Temp/image004.jpg

http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/Temp/image006.jpg

http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/Temp/image008.jpg

http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/Temp/image010.jpg

http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/Temp/image012.jpg

http://www.jacksonholewyoming.net/Temp/image014.jpg

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-20-2003 07:58: Message edited by: ELKCHSR ]</font>