Less Access = Less People = Less Probability of getting Caught

[Nemont]

Here is the bottom line question is this: Where does the bulk poaching occur? Near the roads or in the back country? You have not answered this question or offered proof that your contention is even remotely close to being true.

Nemont

 

[MattK]

Ten Beers and Cheese- I would invite any game warden to follow me into any area. I would contend Buzz would do the same thing (as long as they don't spook the game). Game Wardens would be wasting a lot of time but I would be more than happy to let them come with me.

Bottom Line: People who go that far back probably don't need to poach as they are able to get larger game without poaching. Less hunting pressure better odds of getting trophy animals LEGALLY. Nobody is contending there isn't poaching done everywhere. The contention is the bulk of poaching is done where there are more people. More people are in areas that have more roads and better access. You can make your own conclusion from there.

 

[YourRoyalHighness]

That was a well stated post Ten, and very much to the point.
I see the argument is very valid, it is in our nature to do things we aren’t supposed to, especially if we are far away from prying eyes..

Only if you suffer from not having a flippin' set of MORALS and ETHICS.

I think ol' E-Cheese finally showed his true colors and admidts that if he ain't gonna get caught, he will do the wrong thing.

It is doing the RIGHT thing even if there is nobody around that defines ethical and moral behaviour.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Nemont, I'm pretty sure Ten Beers is trying to convince us the bulk of the poaching takes place in the back country far from any roads because there aren't as many people there who might observe and report the poachers. His solution is to build roads and ATV trails into all the back country and Wilderness areas so fatassed ATV vigilantes will be able to patrol those areas and help catch the poachers.

I might be confused about that, however, because it's such a looney tune theory I'm not sure I understand it.

 

[YourRoyalHighness]

Hey Ten Beers,
In YOUR opinion, what is poached most? Trophy animals or "meat" animals?

 

[Ten Bears]

NEMONT, Here is the bottom line answer to your question: "Where does the bulk poaching occur?" Where the poacher is least likely to be seen or caught. Near the roads and in the back country.

BY MATTy:
Ten Beers and Cheese- I would invite any game warden to follow me into any area. I would contend Buzz would do the same thing (as long as they don't spook the game). Game Wardens would be wasting a lot of time but I would be more than happy to let them come with me.

I am not concerned how a person would act when they know their being watched by the game warden, but rather, how they act when they don't know they're being watched. Offering to take one with you when you hunt means nothing to me.

Bottom Line: People who go that far back probably don't need to poach as they are able to get larger game without poaching.Then why do they poach? Nobody is contending there isn't poaching done everywhere.I believe BUZZ has contended that very issue, much as does your previous statement.

By IT:
Nemont, I'm pretty sure Ten Beers is trying to convince us the bulk of the poaching takes place in the back country far from any roads because there aren't as many people there who might observe and report the poachers. His solution is to build roads and ATV trails into all the back country and Wilderness areas so fatassed ATV vigilantes will be able to patrol those areas and help catch the poachers.

I might be confused about that, however, because it's such a looney tune theory I'm not sure I understand it.

Quite probably one of the most ridiculous statements IT has made for some time that didn't involve name calling (if you overlook the Beers comment).

NEMONT & YRH, to answer your questions again. I believe that poaching is done in areas where the poacher believes he/she is most likely to have success without getting caught. Be it trophy or meat animals. In recent years I have found numerous headless deer and elk, as well as one blackbear that was missing its head, paws, and gall. I even found a hide from a bighorn ewe not far from a "backcountry" camp a few years ago. I have often wondered if it was "camp meat" or if it left the area strapped over the back of stock in a meat bag with a deer tag on it.

 

[Nemont]

Feature article from Saskatchewan Environment
Writer; Art Jones

Poaching For Profit

They travel at night. Driving slowly down back roads and through fields, using spotlights or headlights to freeze a deer in its tracks
.
Poached antelope found last fall in the Big Muddy Valley near Minton.

A rifle barks and another trophy white tailed deer becomes the victim of an illegal hunt. The prized head and antlers are usually destined for a collector, often one who lives outside of the country. The meat of an animal poached for its head is often left in the field.

Poaching isn’t limited to deer. The latest incidents have occurred in the Wadena area. This fall Saskatchewan Environment (Saskatchewan Environment) conservation officers found 773 waterfowl dumped in several locations, including a landfill, just south of Fishing Lake. It’s estimated, in an average year, the number of big game animals, game birds, fish and waterfowl poachers kill in Saskatchewan is equal to the legal harvest.

Dave Harvey, of Saskatchewan Environment Enforcement, says this year one form of poaching, the illegal use of lights for hunting, has increased by nearly 40 per cent.

“This trend seems to occur in years when farmers are done their field work early and the snow does not arrive until late in the fall. This means poachers are more likely to get access to more areas and are able to conduct their illegal activities without being seen by many people in the rural areas.”

In Saskatchewan and across all of North America poaching has taken on a new context. Much of it is now done for profit and has the potential to cause a serious decline in the populations of fish and wildlife. Game populations need predators to stay healthy and productive. Too many animals can lead to a big drain on the habitat. This is often followed by starvation and disease.

Natural predators and hunters help maintain the balance between populations and habitat.

Saskatchewan Environment’s Harvey says not only do poachers upset that balance, they also hurt Saskatchewan’s growing outfitting industry. It also needs healthy game populations to bring in hunters.

“The loss of these poached animals hurts everyone in the province. It steals from future generations and those who want to be able to see a healthy sustainable wildlife population for many years to come.”

Saskatchewan Environment’s Harvey says although conservation officers use land and air patrols to look for poachers, most of their tips come from people concerned about the environment and toll poaching takes. This fall calls to the “TURN-IN-POACHERS” hotline are up by nearly 20 per cent.

The toll free TIP line number is 1-800-667-7561. It operates 24 hours a day

 

[Nemont]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/hunter/gametrails/2001/impact_roads.htm

Elk vulnerability is increased significantly by increased number of roads and by road improvements. Roads provide access for hunters during the hunting season and for poachers at other times. Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) researchers documented a significantly higher poaching rate in the areas with the highest open road density and closest proximity to human populations. They predicted that significant reductions in poaching would result with lower densities of drivable roads in most elk ranges.

The greatest amount of hunting pressure is concentrated near the road systems and as a result, this is where the majority of the harvest occurs. Wildlife biologists have encouraged road management actions such as seasonal road closures, gated roads, road decommissioning and restoration. The WDFW cooperates with private landowners, public land management agencies in road management. The Green Dot Road Management System is a cooperative road management program that is in place to address the concerns of too many roads. Under this system, all roads in an area are closed unless posted open with a green dot. Refer to page 17 in the 2001 Big Game Hunting Seasons and Rules Pamphlet. Next time you see a gated road on public or private land, seasonal closure, or Cooperative Road Management Area (Green Dot System) respect the law and know the reasons why.

 

[Nemont]

EVANSTON -- Ogden, Utah residents Scott E. Day and Daniel R. Fowers came to Wyoming on Oct. 30 to kill a large buck mule deer and put Day’s Utah tag on it. Instead, they got busted.
Wyoming Game and Fish Department wardens Jim Olson of Evanston and Neil Hymas of Cokeville made the arrest after Olson observed the men hunting deer near Sawtooth Mountain, east of the Crawford Mountains in southwest Wyoming.
Olson said previous surveillance efforts indicated this vehicle may have been associated with two Utah family groups the G&F suspected of hunting deer in Wyoming after the season was closed.
"Over the past 10 years, two wildlife investigators and at least three district game wardens have worked on this situation," said Olson. "The individuals from this camp had truly refined their skills hunting deer in Wyoming while the season was closed."
After a few hours of watching Fowers, 24, and Day, 23, continuously raising their rifles looking at deer through their scopes and then using their headlights to find deer in the dark, Olson pulled the vehicle over to interview the men.
During questioning, Day told G&F officers the two men were hunting "dogs."
"The only rifles in the truck were a .300 Winchester Short Magnum and a Weatherby 7mm Magnum," said Olson. "They had no coyote or predator calls, no camouflage clothing and had not shot any coyotes."

 

[Nemont]

Road density Roads and the increased access that they allow are detrimental to both terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. Roads are usually built for access to timber, mining, rural residential developments, all of which have a high potential of decimating both carnivores and their habitat, as well as other species. In the North Coast region of California, an extensive road network is available to humans to hunt and trap on both public and private lands. The relatively high amount of legal hunting allowed by the California Department of Fish and Game is added to by a significant amount of poaching. As road density increases, the probability of a carnivore encountering a poacher or a hunter also increases. In addition to hunting, road kills from vehicle collisions also increase with proximity to humans (Trombulak, 2000). Roads and associated human access cause a modification in animal behavior. Research has found Black Bears to shift home ranges away from high road density. The Pacific Fisher alters its movement patterns by traveling along roads, thus leading to an increased mortality (personal communication Golightly 1996). Bald Eagles (Anthony & Isaacs 1989) and Golden Eagles (Fernandez 1993) have a lower productivity near roads. On public lands, roads allow increased visitor access, which may passively harass animals (Trombulak, 2000

).

 

[Nemont]

Road Density Management Projects

Approximately 20.5 miles of roads within the planning area (C1 and B10 land allocations) are proposed for closure to reduce the harassment and poaching of wildlife, restore basin hydrology, and to better balance the annual road maintenance program with current funding. Two types of treatments are proposed:

Closure and reclosure. "Entrance management" would close sixteen miles and re-close _ mile of roads. Closure by entrance management would be a combination of berming, obliterating the first 100 feet of road surface behind the berm, and placing large rocks and logs to effectively close the road for vehicular use. Waterbars and cross drains would be installed to intercept surface flow and route it to adjacent ground.


Seasonal closure by gate. Four miles of road would be gated closed during hunting season to better protect deer/elk and other wildlife.
The current density of roads (3.87 mi./sq. mi.), open to public travel and within the planning area, exceeds Forest Plan Standards and Guidelines for B-10 Deer/Elk Winter Range land allocation (1.5 mi./sq. mi.), for Inventoried Deer/Elk Winter Range (2.0 mi./sq. mi.), and for Inventoried Summer Range (2.5 mi./sq. mi.). In all three instances, the level of road density has created a situation where the harassment of deer/elk (and other wildlife) is ongoing, and their illegal taking (poaching) is a noticeable occurrence. High road density has also increased the likelihood of higher peak stream flows due to interception of subsurface water flow and routing to adjacent stream channels, primarily within the West Fork Neal Creek sub-watershed. In addition, current road maintenance funding does not allow adequate road maintenance to minimize soil erosion and water quality degradation, over the entire Mt. Hood NF transportation system.

 

[Nemont]

Other effects to wildlife from roads and power lines
Roads can provide hunters and poachers with increased access into forested areas . Many large mammals are exposed to increased hunting pressure near roads, and some may have difficulties maintaining their populations near roadsides. In the Appalachian Highlands, management of black bears requires a special concern for road density (Clark and Pelton 1999). While overall black bear populations in the Southern Appalachians are considered stable to increasing at the present time, most black bear mortality is human-induced and includes hunting, poaching, and road kills. Hunting and poaching efficiencies increase along with improved vehicle access, and black bear habitat suitability is increased when the density of roads is kept low or if logging roads are closed after the timber has been harvested (Clark and Pelton 1999). Similarly, Brody and Pelton (1989) concluded that the primary effect of roads in bear habitat in western North Carolina was an increase in the vulnerability of bears to hunting.

 

[YourRoyalHighness]

Nemont,

Thanks for the good reading. Maybe Ten Beers can find a 4th grader on his bus home to read these articles to him. Although it may not be of any use as he is a bit slow on the comprehension side....

Hey Ten Beers,
Since your original equation predicts the probability of getting caught, why not share with us the actual numbers???

 

[Nemont]

YRH,

I could probably post another 100 articles that show both ancectdodally and scientifically that roads increase poaching. I wonder if anyone can find even 1 article that says having more remote wilderness increases poaching.

Nemont

 

[MattK]

Nemont- Please try to refrain from using any facts or quotes as they only confuse Ten Beers.

TB- I apologize for Nemont's use of facts...please carry on with your use of "Ten Beers Logic".

 

[cfree]

This one should just about piss everyone off---poaching, clear-cutting, and illegal aliens(probably)!


New Mexico Department of Game and Fish
Contact: Dan Williams (505) 476-8004
[email protected]
www.wildlife.state.nm.us
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
DIGITAL PHOTOS AVAILABLE
MARCH 8, 2005
OFFICERS ARREST 4 MEN IN RAID OF SUSPECTED POACHING CAMP NEAR
MOUNTAINAIR
SANTA FE – Department of Game and Fish officers from the newly created Anti-poaching Strike Force raided
a suspected poaching and illegal woodcutting operation southeast of Mountainair, N.M., on Monday and
arrested four men in connection with at least 16 violations of wildlife laws.

Evidence confiscated from four long-term camps included parts of at least five deer, four elk, four antelope, an oryx, a bobcat, parts of two hawks and a live captive mockingbird. Officers said more than nine people had
been living for months in the camps that straddled the Torrance-Socorro county line on state trust land. Eleven officers from the Department of Game and Fish, two State Police officers, and representatives from the State Forestry Division and State Land Office participated in the raid. Earlier investigations included visits to the camps by plainclothes officers and surveillance from the Department of Game and Fish airplane. The aerial surveillance revealed several hundred acres of wooded area that appeared to have been clear-cut.

“What we found was an operation that clearly had a significant impact on wildlife resources,” Game and Fish Conservation Officer Chris Chadwick said. “Our goal was to stop illegal poaching activity, along with any
habitat degradation that may affect wildlife.” Chadwick said there also appeared to be a lot of commercial woodcutting activity in the area of the camps. The State Forestry Division and the State Land Office are
handling that investigation.

“We appreciate the opportunity to work in cooperation with the Department of Game and Fish to identify and prosecute those who are conducting illegal activities on state trust lands,” State Land Commissioner Pat Lyons said.

Aldo Saenz, 27, and Gerardo Gonzalez, 27, were charged with illegal possession of two elk heads, deer parts, antelope meat and an oryx skull. They were booked into the Socorro County jail. Eloy Alcido Gonzalez, age
unknown, and Sergio Gonzalez, 31, were charged with illegal possession of deer heads, antelope parts and an elk head. Hometowns were unavailable for any of the four men, who were expected to be arraigned
Wednesday.

The operation was one of the first for the Anti-poaching Strike Force, which was formed last month to put more conservation law enforcement officers in the field. When needed, as many as 40 commissioned officers who also have roles as Game and Fish biologists, managers and researchers are called upon to assist regular field officers.

“This is just the type of operation that we are looking for,” State Game Commission Chairman Guy Riordan said. “Here we have trophy elk, deer and oryx that were being poached when our ethical sportsmen have to be lucky in the draw to hunt them, and many times don’t get the opportunity to harvest trophy animals of this size.”


To report poaching in New Mexico, call Operation Game Thief at 1-800-432-4263. Rewards are offered for information leading to the arrest or filing of charges against game violators.
###

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/documents/poaching_camps.pdf

 

[Nemont]

The biggest challenge is with the basic equation. Before you can do a good analysis on this issue you would have to rethink the very basic premise of what is being said.


For one to believe this simply equation you would have to believe that all the scientific data on road density is incorrect:
Less Access = Less People = Less Probability of getting Caught |oo


I believe a more relevant and much more useful equation would look something like this:

Increased Road Density+Poachers-ethics*the increasing number of Fat assed ATV riders/number of miles of trails open to riding=A higher number of poached animal near roads

Nemont

 

[Point Creep]

 

[Nemont]

Greenhorn that looks like it was taken halfway between Culbertson and Froid.

Nemont

 

[Point Creep]

Actually, a cousin sent me that..

He said it was a guy named Jeff and his buddy Mike from Idaho was riding shotgun ....jumped out and started blasting away, somewhere near Whitewater last fall.