Lead Shot Ban

[Otto Matic]

Before I go to pasting website links, would a discussion on the banning of lead shot and bullets be of interest?
...or maybe something we (you) are tired of discussing? i.e. beating a dead horse

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Like banning for all hunting? Or banning for everything including target shooting?

 

[Otto Matic]

Like banning for all hunting? Or banning for everything including target shooting?

My understanding is that the original "lead ban" was to keep toxic(?) shot out of water ways and impoundments.
But the ban has progressed to other facets of shooting/hunting.
It's my personal belief that the eventual goal is to stop hunting/shooting by making ammunition difficult for some and impossible for others to obtain. Eventually making firearms a relic of the past.

"Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in!" Sen. D. Feinstein (D-CA)

...but yeah! Hunting, shooting, trap, skeet, targets, anything and everything!

Backdoor gun control.

 

[Brandon270]

I have some personal experience with this. My state started enforcing a statewide ban on using lead for hunting a few years ago. We can still target shoot with lead (for now) but hunting with lead including varmints is illegal.

One issue I've run into is lack of availability, you go into a big store like sportsman's with 3 aisles full of ammo and very little of it can legally used for hunting. You're also rolling the dice if your rifle is picky on what it likes, if you only have two copper options in your chambering and neither run accurately you're screwed unless you reload. Ammo availability problems are compounded once they outlawed buying ammo online which further reduces options to what's available locally.

Biggest issue on the rifle side is in 22lr, there are one maybe two copper options and their effective range are pitiful compared to lead.

Performance-wise I've been happy with results (using Barnes tsx mostly), but the lack of options is still annoying if you'd rather try something else. Where I haven't been happy is the performance of steel dove loads. I know steel loads have been used on waterfowl for a long time but the results I've personally had with steel dove loads isn't very good. Even with #6 running at 1400fps I've had more cripples than I ever did with lead #8. For the last three years I'll get 4-5 cripples in a limit of 15 when I used to get maybe 1 per limit. Changing to a tighter choke hasn't helped.

I can understand the environmental reasons to an extent, and human health is an issue as well, but there are definitely some major downsides to going lead free.

 

[Brandon270]

My understanding is that the original "lead ban" was to keep toxic(?) shot out of water ways and impoundments.
But the ban has progressed to other facets of shooting/hunting.
It's my personal belief that the eventual goal is to stop hunting/shooting by making ammunition difficult for some and impossible for others to obtain. Eventually making firearms a relic of the past.

"Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in!" Sen. D. Feinstein (D-CA)

...but yeah! Hunting, shooting, trap, skeet, targets, anything and everything!

Backdoor gun control.

EPA shut down our skeet range because there is a slough a couple hundred yards away that has water in it sometimes. We finally had to negotiate with them that we can use it as long as we only use steel shot.

 

[sierrahunter]

Old news. Been using nonlead here in California for years now for everything.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

My understanding is that the original "lead ban" was to keep toxic(?) shot out of water ways and impoundments.
But the ban has progressed to other facets of shooting/hunting.
It's my personal belief that the eventual goal is to stop hunting/shooting by making ammunition difficult for some and impossible for others to obtain. Eventually making firearms a relic of the past.

"Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in!" Sen. D. Feinstein (D-CA)

...but yeah! Hunting, shooting, trap, skeet, targets, anything and everything!

Backdoor gun control.

Ahh, gotcha. Yea I don’t know, could be. Like the guy above said California has been this way for years. I don’t waterfowl hunt and have lived in “red” states so it hasn’t been an issue I’ve really dealt with in my life - yet. I’ve also heard the talk about cripples from the bird guys as well. I am no expert but seeing lead poisoned raptors has swayed my perception to favor copper when available and when my rifle likes it. As far as clay shooting most of the big trap ranges I’ve shot at reclaim the ground every so often with some sort of sifter and they actually pick up the shot since it mostly all lands in a given area. So I guess I don’t see any downside to sport shooting with lead.

 

[Hydrophilic]

When we first moved to our new property I found a local bluebird organization who was trying to preserve the local population. I had a representative out to our property and she gave me the run down about development, habitat, starlings, etc.

When starlings came up in conversation I mentioned I go after them during nesting season, as I have personally seen them attack and outcompete a number of native cavity nesters. I mentioned I used copper ammo in case any carcasses are picked up by raptors and she must have said thank you a dozen times. She was a birder and knew a veterinarian who has dealt with raptors and lead poisoning.

That conversation transitioned naturally to hunting and it ended with me telling her I’ll put up as many bluebird boxes as I can, and if she knew about other wildlife nonprofits in the area to send them my way. This lady was not a hunter but had a positive interaction with a hunter. That’s how you build bridges and improve public relations.

I had a hunting buddy talk to me about lead bullets last summer and I switched to copper the next day. If there was consistent research showing the chemicals in my salmon egg cure was killing the red legged frog, I would find a new egg cure, or alternative bait. Conservation is an agenda that many hunters have forgotten about. As leaders of wildlife management we should step up to the plate or someone else will.

 

[Otto Matic]

Ahh, gotcha. Yea I don’t know, could be. Like the guy above said California has been this way for years. I don’t waterfowl hunt and have lived in “red” states so it hasn’t been an issue I’ve really dealt with in my life - yet. I’ve also heard the talk about cripples from the bird guys as well. I am no expert but seeing lead poisoned raptors has swayed my perception to favor copper when available and when my rifle likes it. As far as clay shooting most of the big trap ranges I’ve shot at reclaim the ground every so often with some sort of sifter and they actually pick up the shot since it mostly all lands in a given area. So I guess I don’t see any downside to sport shooting with lead.

Per some of the articles and research I've done lately, the lead ban in Condor Alley in California had little to no effect on condor mortality due to lead toxicity.
What was discovered is that there are other sources of lead contamination that have no connection to lead shot, bullets or hunters that also affect condors.

Problem is, the "powers that be" refuse to accept anything but "a lead ban will stop the problem".
In fact, they (liberals?) refuse to even look at alternate "scientific" studies and research.

I no longer hunt waterfowl either. But it's because all my shotguns but one are antiques and I refuse to run steel shot.

 

[Otto Matic]

When we first moved to our new property I found a local bluebird organization who was trying to preserve the local population. I had a representative out to our property and she gave me the run down about development, habitat, starlings, etc.

When starlings came up in conversation I mentioned I go after them during nesting season, as I have personally seen them attack and outcompete a number of native cavity nesters. I mentioned I used copper ammo in case any carcasses are picked up by raptors and she must have said thank you a dozen times. She was a birder and knew a veterinarian who has dealt with raptors and lead poisoning.

That conversation transitioned naturally to hunting and it ended with me telling her I’ll put up as many bluebird boxes as I can, and if she knew about other wildlife nonprofits in the area to send them my way. This lady was not a hunter but had a positive interaction with a hunter. That’s how you build bridges and improve public relations.

I had a hunting buddy talk to me about lead bullets last summer and I switched to copper the next day. If there was consistent research showing the chemicals in my salmon egg cure was killing the red legged frog, I would do the same thing. Conservation is an agenda that many hunters have forgotten about. As leaders of wildlife management we should step up to the plate or someone else will.

I've located several articles that aren't "anti lead ban", but present information and research data that states the lead ban is pretty much a waste.
Google "lead ammo ban" and you will find article after article after article of "research"(?) supporting the banning of lead, both shot and bullets and just how deadly lead is.

Now try and Google for articles saying the lead ban is not necessary.
You will find very few, but your search will still bring up multiple "lead ban" articles.

Before you get all bent out of shape, I'm not saying a lead ban is "bad", but is it "necessary"?

 

[Otto Matic]

"... I know steel loads have been used on waterfowl for a long time but the results I've personally had with steel dove loads isn't very good. Even with #6 running at 1400fps I've had more cripples than I ever did with lead #8. For the last three years I'll get 4-5 cripples in a limit of 15 when I used to get maybe 1 per limit. Changing to a tighter choke hasn't helped. ..."

Several years ago, I watched a gaggle of hunters shooting geese off a wheat field just across the road from my house.
I was unable to count the number of shots, OR the number of geese that fell. But I wondered just how many geese retreated back to the lake carrying steel pellets?

 

[Nick87]

If California did it first, I want no part. Pretty good rule of thumb regardless the topic.

 

[AlaskaHunter]

I've been very happy with Barnes TTSX and LRX bullets for over a decade.
Luckily I have adequate reloading supplies as there are no primers or powders in stores within 350 miles of Fairbanks.

However, I may run out of steel shot for duck hunting as none is available in any stores within 350 miles,
and the season opens Sept. 1.

 

[Otto Matic]

I've been very happy with Barnes TTSX and LRX bullets for over a decade.
Luckily I have adequate reloading supplies as there are no primers or powders in stores within 350 miles of Fairbanks.

However, I may run out of steel shot for duck hunting as none is available in any stores within 350 miles,
and the season opens Sept. 1.

I haven't changed rifles projectiles nor do I have any intention of buying anything other than "cup & core" bullets.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

Old news. Been using nonlead here in California for years now for everything.

How long have you been shooting unleaded??

 

[Gerald Martin]

It all started with banning lead paint. Our health was the stated cause but we know it was really an effort to ban painting altogether.

 

[MarvB]

If California did it first, I want no part. Pretty good rule of thumb regardless the topic.

Spot on ....pretty much holds true for ANY topic unfortunately....

 

[Nick87]

Spot on ....pretty much holds true for ANY topic unfortunately....

Unfortunately were next in line here.

 

[sierrahunter]

How long have you been shooting unleaded??

California’s lead ban law was signed in 2013. It gradually banned lead for various species until a full ban took effect in 2019. The catalyst for the ban was the California condor, which was constantly getting lead poisoning from eating hunter-shot carcasses. Other raptors, like golden eagles, were similarly affected.

I’m conflicted about the ban. Lead has been shown to be problematic for wildlife. Here’s an article on the effects of lead on condors. I know some of the authors; this is solid work. https://www.pnas.org/content/109/28/11449

You may not think that condors are worth all this effort and money, and you may be right. But lead poisoning is a much bigger issue than condors. Having said that, I do think the lead ban has been a slippery slope in California. We can’t hunt bobcats anymore, can’t use hounds for bears, and almost lost our ability to hunt bears this year.

I don’t mind using copper for big game (amazing results, frankly), and I’m accustomed to steal shot at this point. I also don’t miss picking lead fragments out of my teeth when eating venison. But be on guard for your hunting privileges.

 

[greatwhitebuffalo]

California’s lead ban law was signed in 2013. It gradually banned lead for various species until a full ban took effect in 2019. The catalyst for the ban was the California condor, which was constantly getting lead poisoning from eating hunter-shot carcasses. Other raptors, like golden eagles, were similarly affected.

I’m conflicted about the ban. Lead has been shown to be problematic for wildlife. Here’s a recent article on the effects of lead on condors. I know some of the authors; this is solid work. https://www.pnas.org/content/109/28/11449

You may not think that condors are worth all this effort and money, and you may be right. But lead poisoning is a much bigger issue than condors. Having said that, I do think the lead ban has been a slippery slope in California. We can’t hunt bobcats anymore, can’t use hounds for bears, and almost lost our ability to hunt bears this year.

I don’t mind using copper for big game (amazing results, frankly), and I’m accustomed to steal shot at this point. I also don’t miss picking lead fragments out of my teeth when eating venison. But be on guard for your hunting privileges.

Eight years is a good while. Leadse to believe that we should be seeing some significant results by now. Not just with one species, but multiple other aspects as well.

In kind, I would expect that there would be some examples of other significant negative impacts in areas without restrictions to contrast.