LAW IS LAW (please read)

[Washington Hunter]

Since when does the majority get to rule over the minority??? If that were the case there would be no hunting, since 90% of the people in this country do not hunt. Just like Buzz said, religion belongs in churches and homes, not in government/schools.

 

[iminrut]

But apparently they are not offended by it.....yet.......or we dang sure wouldn't have hunting anymore.

I thought our whole voting procedure.....on all levels, was decided by a majority.....whether it be a city coucil meeting, an ag board meeting, a union voting a contract, or even public office.........all the way to the Presidency.

You don't like the President or his views....especially his Christian ones ??.....well, the majority spoke.....twice.......he is still in office.

I ain't here to get into a whizzing contest with all of you.......I am just as pationate about my views as you are about yours.......maybe even more so. It's not fun when someone is trying to take something away from you, and that you already have the freedom to choose to do or not to do......

Last I heard, you don't get sent to jail for not saying the pledge of allegiance....let alone just the simple "under God" part.......you can refrain.....it's your freedom not to if you so choose........

Why do we need more laws regulating what we as individuals already have the choice to do ??.......it's just one more freedom lost to unneccessary legislation....

 

[MarvB]

Just because some a-hole goes to church every sunday doesnt change the fact that they're ultimately still just an a-hole.

You know Buzz, and I'm sure you could really care less, I have both agreed and disagreed with you over the years on anywhere from ATV's to having kids but the quote above was about the most bullshit thing I've heard out of your keyboard.

I too am getting tired of big bro's hand in my pants at every turn as well and think that, as a nation, we are getting far too "over-regulated/mandated" on just about every freakin' thing in our lives. As a result, I have taught my kids to have strong wills, speak, think, and provide for themselves, and don't make a habit of following the sheeple in life.

That being said, I have also taught them to respect the thoughts, rights, and feelings of others and the differences in how they may have been raised. Something you evidently have missed?

I don't know about your school systems (but without kids, I don't know how involved you are in "schools") but as an elementary school/junior high coach with three kids, I am very involved in ours. I don't think that religion is being rammed down anyone’s throat, at least not here and it doens't get much stranger than this fuggin state, and most who want an education whose core centers around such would chooses a private school instead. I, for one, am not afraid that my kids might “get exposure” to Christian beliefs and principles in their life/education as I feel they are smart enough to draw their own conclusions and aren't going to be led by the nose by either side!

Sorry, I guess I am just not that paranoid that my kids are going to be brain washed by saying the Pledge of Allegiance (you know…One nation under “God”) and will end up in a white robe handing out poppies at the airport.

I think we should all be more upset that our paid legislators have nothing better to do than worry that “God” is on the back of a friggin green piece of paper whose value seems to be getting less and less by the day! We’d probably all be better off trusting in someone we can’t “see” than in the masses appointed a-holes dishing out the pork back in D.C.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

You certainly have a way of winning people over to your point of view! Did you call in sick on the day they had the Government sponsered sensitivity training classes?

 

[Toonces]

Iminrut,

This country was never intended to be governed by the majority at the expense of minority rights.

If it were, the Bill of Rights would not be necessary as its intended to protect the minority, not the majority.

The Senate is not a majority run institution, if it were, why does CT have the same representation as California?

The President is not elected by majority, he is elected by the electoral college.

In general the the Constitution is very anti majority rule. Majority rule can result in unlimited government power serving the whim of the majority. The Constitution limits the power of goverment to prevent tyranny of the majority.

By the way if I am not mistaken the majority did not elect Bush twice. Gore recieved more votes than Bush, so you should be happy that the majority does not rule.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Toonces,

Nice post.....

 

[Washington Hunter]

Toonces, thanks....that's the point I was trying to make but you did it better.

 

[iminrut]

I guess it is safe to say that we agree to disagree......still takes a majority of electoral votes.......and I thought the electoral college was established so all classes have an equal voice.........instead of 1,000,000 city slickers voting against 1,000 hicks......if I'm not mistaken most liberals live in largely populated areas, where most conservatives live in the heartland........while Gore may have won the most votes, Bush won the most states....and the most electoral votes..........

My point is we've got enough regulation....enough laws......you already have the freedom of choice......nobody is ramming religion down anybodies throat.....so feel free to obstain.....same way I obstain from wearing velcroe gloves while in Montana

I'm not intentionally trying to butt heads.....it's just you all voiced your opinion, and I would like mine to be heard as well.....I respect yours and I expect the same.....

 

[JoseCuervo]

InimRut,
Do you think God will be mad at you if you spend money that doesn't trust him? Do you think you will forget to pray to God if you are reminded each day in school?

It is funny that you say we have enough laws, but yet, you want laws on the books to allow the majority to oppress the minority and require them to pay homage to something that is against their beliefs.

 

[iminrut]

You don't want religion rammed down your throat, but you're fine with ramming your lack of it down mine.......

Like I said, you have a choice, but you're trying to take mine away......you can refrain from worshipping God or praying to Him.....you can withold from saying "under God" during the pledge.........but you want to take away my choice and chance to.........where's the fairness in that.......No Where am I aware of it being required by the American public.....You're not going to go to jail or recieve a failing grade or be expelled form our borders......in the 200+ years of this country, the American people have had a choice.......but you'ld rather have that one less freedom......don't worry, it may very well be one of many........how many are you willing to loose ??

 

[got2hunt]

maybe I should of had someone post this in SI, but i can t go there, so this be more fun............. hump

 

[BuzzH]

Iminrut,

You're missing the point. By having God on money and in court houses, I DONT HAVE A CHOICE.

Like I said, the decision on whether or not you believe in God, Dog or Rock or whatever you choose should not be part of the U.S. Government or things that represent the Government. God is not mentioned ONCE in the Constitution of the U.S. do you think thats by chance or by design?

Keep your religious beliefs to yourself, in your home, and in your church of choice. Leave religion out of public institutions, it has no place there.

By not putting any religious propaganda on money, court houses, etc. NOBODY can be accused of forcing anything on anyone...get it?

 

[iminrut]

Ya I get your point Buzz, it's duelly noted and respected........I just don't like change, and additional legislation....and tax payers dollars spent on what I think is really unneccessary.....it's not like it has been a real big issue for years on end.....

I am a Christian, but don't push my beliefs on those that don't want to hear it........forgive me if I came across wrong.....I've been working 12 hour nights, and hunting during the days.....to say I'm short on sleep is an understatement...LOL

 

[Tuffbucker]

"God is not mentioned ONCE in the Constitution of the U.S. do you think thats by chance or by design?"

Technically you are right....the word GOD is not in the COnstitution is not in the Consitution, but a direct reference to a belief in Christ (Christian belief) is included in the Consitution....

In the retification clause (Article VII) of the consitution it states....


"Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names, "

Who do you think they are refering to when they say OUR LORD....Lord Vadar?? I think not, the Lord Jesus Christ, which in my opinion, causes me to believe that the signers of our Constitution recognized the existence of a Higher Power....

While you may try to argue that this is just a figure of speech. Its a empty argument. They could have just as easily left the phrase out....which causes me to ask .....BY CHANCE OR DESIGN !

The existence of the phrase "In the Year of the Lord" in the Consitution, proves that our FOunding Fathers society, culture, and beliefs, were influenced by/based in a belief in God.

Now, Im not saying that Religion should be taught in schools, or "rammed" down anyone's throat, but I do believe that myself, my children, and other God-fearing indivduals do have the right to express their belief in Him....just as those who don't have a belief in a Diety, have the right to express their disbelief. Why should we have to give up the opportunity to worship our God as we see fit. If you dont wish to worship the same way, then so be it. But dont take away our ability to do so....

Now, I know that you will argue away anything I have said here, and that is your right, your opinion, and your belief....but for me " IN GOD I TRUST".

SCOTT

 

[Washington Hunter]

Why does everybody always say "don't take away my ability to...worship?"

I've never seen where anybody (Buzz included) has said they want anybody's ability to worship however they choose taken away. They're only talking about in schools and in government. Isn't that what churches are for?

 

[Tuffbucker]

No one is asking to WORSHIP in schools and government. THe simple mention of God does not constitute worship....if so, the simple mention of anyone's name would constitute WORSHIP...All Im saying is what harm is there in allowing those who CHOOSE to, to say UNDER GOD while pledging their allegience to this country. What harm does it do to have the 10 commandments in front of a Federal Courthouse?? Maybe if those criminals chose to follow some of those commandments, they wouldn't be in the situation they are. What harm does it do to have "In God We Trust" on our money.....do you really feel that religion is being FORCED or PRESSURED upon you by having these 4 little words on your money?? You spend it just the same, am I right. So why change it? Really, what harm does it do you??

SCOTT

 

[iminrut]

Well said in both posts TB...it's the exact points I've been trying to get across......you're just better at putting it into words....

WH, it would be taking away part of my ability to worship where and when I feel the need.....you all say religion should be kept in the home and the Church.....I disagree......by taking away prayer in schools, or my oppurtunity to say "under God" while reciting the pledge...or even the ability of my pastor to visit me in the hospital without permission....it IS taking my choice and freedoms away........

Like TB....it is in no way harming you as things are....you already have the freedom to not worship or recite God's name as however you see fit....but you see it appropriate to take our freedom to do so away....oh, except in the privacy of our homes or churches....

 

[BuzzH]

Iminrut,

Ever heard of seperation of church and state?

Yes, religion should be kept at home and in the church. There is no reason why my tax dollars should be spent in a public school system endorsing ANY religion. If you want YOUR kids to learn about religion send them to YOUR church or to a private religious school.

Next time you and I are at a ball game or attend a class or walk up to a courthouse...lets be fair and make sure the muslims, jews, jehovah witnesses, nazis, skinheads, mormons, sun worshippers, athiests all have their 2 cents plastered on our court house, money and in PUBLIC schools. THAT is fair, forcing christianity on everyone is not FAIR. Get it?

If you find it necessary to pray, fine, do it. Just dont make me listen to that crap. Your rights always end where they infringe on mine.

Oh, and Tuffbucker, you're grasping at straws...fortunately for both of us the founding fathers were smart enough to realize just how important seperation of church and state is/was.

Another question...if God and Christian beliefs were so important (and they were all so "god fearing") than why in the FIRST amendment is FREEDOM OF RELIGION outlined????? Its not outlined in the second, third, or tenth...THE FIRST. What part of this dont you understand? "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Like I said, its pretty easy to see who has thier panties in a wad over religion, the people that believe we HAVE to have god on our money and the ten commandments (none of which are even laws) on our courthouses, and prayer in PUBLIC schools. Would your money be any different if the word "god" wasnt on it? What would that difference be?

Oh, and tuffbucker, in reference to "the year of our lord", that was a pretty common way to reference ANY date back say...oh, 200 years ago. When you date your checks do you sign them "19 May in the year of our lord 2005"?

Thats a lame reference and about the shakiest defense of the lack of the word "god" in our constitution that I've ever heard. It was left out on purpose, why else would all them "god fearin'" folk not talk about God ONE SINGLE TIME in the most important American document ever written?

 

[iminrut]

Buzz...I get your point but your not getting mine.....you're on your soapbox speaking on the seperation of church and state, while I'm on mine talking about religious freedom.....I don't push my views on others, but will voice them during a debate such as this......the main thing to me is that I'm not for loosing any freedom, regardless of which one or what cause....these freedoms are why not only individuals, but families dropped everything they knew to come here.......to build a better life.......a free life........not bound and gagged by their governments.......

Example: I am free to speak on religion anywhere and at any time, just as you are free to speak against it.......but you would like to take away my freedom to speak, so you don't have to listen to it.....which would leave me to have to listen to your opinions alone ?!?!?

Now do you see what I'm getting at ?? I think we both have valid points.....so where is the happy medium, so that no freedom is lost ??

 

[Mini Moose]

Maybe it is just me that thinks that you are **********.... but how is having the 10 comandments on the side of a courthouse not infringing on people who don't believe in A higher power.... or who believe in a different higher power, like buzz said..... if the 10 comandments are there then every other religion should be there as well........taking them out of the courthouse isn't infringing on you, it is just making you eqaul to every other person in this country who doesn't believe in them.


*****************************************
Mini
When you grow up and can carry on an adult conversation with some decent language, instead of some dumb ass punk kid I will let you back on hunttalk.

Delw