Issue with floating the sight pin and release timing

[Pucky Freak]

When the pin floats over the bulls-eye I gently "pull apart" the bow to fire the wrist release, in order not to anticipate the shot. I set my trigger travel extremely short, and once I begin this process it takes maybe .30-.40 seconds to fire. In that time, however, the pin has floated off of the bulls-eye, and so the arrow impacts where I don't want it to.

The best solution I can think of is to begin pulling apart the bow when the sight pin "is about to" float over the bulls-eye, as the time it will takes for the release to fire the sight pin will be on the bulls-eye. Is this what others do, or do I have the wrong idea?

I have experimented (very briefly) with punching the trigger when the pin covers the bulls-eye, and I can consistently hit a 2" target at 30 yards with this method. However, I think this is a terrible habit to develop, as I have read that anticipating the shot will only produce worse accuracy over time.

The one other thing I can think of is that I think I have a relaxed bow arm, but maybe I am tensing my muscles and/or over-aiming, and just not aware of it. I really do not feel a tense bow arm, the pin does not seem to "bounce" around on the sight picture, I don't attempt to force the pin to hold more steady, and the amount of movement in the sight picture feels entirely acceptable. I only mention this because I want to account for everything, and maybe if this was the case I could relax my arm more, have less movement, and pull apart the bow and have the arrow impact the bulls-eye if the pin was floating around the target more gently/slowly than it is already.

One last question - when pulling apart the bow to fire, I have read that you push with the bow arm, and pull with the release arm. I can pull with the release arm just fine, but I can't figure out what is meant by pushing the bow arm - that arm is already fully extended, so there is zero room to push. Any insight?

 

[np307]

Where does the movement tend to be? Horizontal or vertical?

 

[Cody Lightfoot]

Unless I've been shooting for a while and just tired, I see this the most when I'm not tightening my back muscles. Once I anchor, I squeeze my shoulders together by tightening my back and it helps lock everything in. You'll have to try it to see what I mean, but that works for me.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Where does the movement tend to be? Horizontal or vertical?

Horizontal

 

[np307]

Horizontal

According to a podcast I was listening to yesterday (maybe Kenyon's?), you should try more weight forward on your stabilizer to decrease horizontal movement.

Disclaimer that I am nowhere near an expert in these matters. Just passing along what I heard.

 

[Bigjav]

Sounds like you’re getting ready to develop target panic, try blind bale shooting and if that doesn’t work maybe try a back tension release

 

[Pucky Freak]

Thanks for all the responses so far!

Unless I've been shooting for a while and just tired, I see this the most when I'm not tightening my back muscles. Once I anchor, I squeeze my shoulders together by tightening my back and it helps lock everything in. You'll have to try it to see what I mean, but that works for me.

Actually, I know exactly what you're referring to - this is the muscle group you need to contract for ballroom dancing. I'll give it a try. I already tighten my abdominal core prior to the draw, so this is an easy addition.

According to a podcast I was listening to yesterday (maybe Kenyon's?), you should try more weight forward on your stabilizer to decrease horizontal movement.

I forgot all about the stabilizer. I'm a bit on the heavy side already, but actually will plan to remove the stabilizer until I can figure this out so the problem is not masked by it. May eventually settle on one that has more weight on the end when all is said and done.

Sounds like you’re getting ready to develop target panic, try blind bale shooting and if that doesn’t work maybe try a back tension release

It's not target panic - the arrows go exactly where the pin is. I'm pretty sure it's either a problem with my form, causing the pin to float too rapidly, or else I am releasing too late so the pin is past dead center when the bow is fired. I appreciate the reminder about blank bale shooting - I incorporate this regularly in my practice to develop muscle memory for form.

I've shot trad (instinctive) for 20 years and compound for just 2 months so aiming is a whole new ballgame for me.

 

[WapitiBob]

Don’t just let it float.
Draw length has to be right for expansion to stay on center.
When your draw length is right, you’ll feel it lock in. Imagine standing in a doorway, on tip toes, palms out against the door frame, slightly below horizontal. Then drop down flat footed. You’ll feel the compression in your chest; that’s what your after.

Get your aiming down and draw length right and you’ll be fine. A cpl twists of the string or re burn the knot on the loop could be the difference.
Your stabilizer weight and front/back ratios are a personal thing. Trial and error is what it takes and it will have a big impact on pin movement.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

Draw length sounds like it’s too long. Increase the weight on your trigger and learn to release with your back muscles. You’re on your way to target panic.

 

[N2TRKYS]

Once I quit squeezing the trigger so it surprised me when it went off, I got a lot more accurate. When the pin hits my target, I pull the trigger. Been doing this for years and it has never let me down.

 

[NYyotekiller]

Like others have said, it’s the beginning of target panic unfortunately. First thing I’d do is get rid of that wrist rocket release and get some type of resistance activated release. It will all but eliminate your target panic if you stick with it. You’ll be amazed at how great you can shoot when your pin floats across the target as you pull through your shot. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[BackofBeyond]

When I started into archery, I started with a wrist rocket and had the same issues. A back tension release was recommended to me, and it's made all the difference in my shooting. Now, I shoot a Nock-On Silverback, and know without a shadow of a doubt when my release (form) is right, my arrow goes exactly where I want it to. The guy that made the recommendation, at the time, said something to the effect of "trust the float, go with it, and quit fighting it." It's amazing to me when I just concentrate on my form, and concentrate on making a perfect shot, the arrow just kind of finds it's way into the X ring.

It took a long while to get there, don't get me wrong. My shooting got worse before it got better, but once it got better it got BETTER.

 

[p_ham]

You can go a couple different directions here.
1: practice floating your pin ON the bull, by that I mean edge to edge. Keep your finger on the trigger but do not fire. If you cannot control yourself from firing you have target panic. Ditch the trigger release and get a hinge or thumb release.

2: skip no. 1 and ditch the trigger for a thumb or hinge. Start from 15-20yds and spend a week or two at each incremental distance.

It does sound like your draw might be little long. Any chance of you posting a pic of your form?

 

[Pucky Freak]

Wow, can't thank everyone enough for all the info and input. I really appreciate it.

And the winner is...WapitiBob.

I knew 30" draw was too much, so I have been at 29.5, as bow only adjusts in 1/2" increments. I did the doorway test and realized 29.5 is too short as I was not getting a good chest compression feel. I cut 1/2" off the release loop, which lengthens the draw by 1/4" and there is a new level of smooth I haven't felt before. I feel like I could hang out here at full draw for a while as it is quite comfortable and natural. I had no idea 1/4" would make such a difference.

The pin movement is reduced by about 50% now - I'll probably revisit some of the other suggestions later. For now I am happy with 4" groups at 30 yards. That's a dead deer 10/10 times from all my stands which have 40 yard shots max. I bet I can shrink this with additional practice over the summer.

I do release with back tension. The pic below is before I shortened the loop, but it shows how I hike the trigger up under my second knuckle, which eliminates pulling the trigger with my finger, and instead pull my entire arm back with back muscles to release, and it does come unexpectedly.

 

[WapitiBob]

Don't be afraid to move things around. You have infinite draw length adj with the string/cables, and the loop. The bow draw length sets the string position to your face, loop length sets your release arm position. Too short or too long of a loop will move you around when you pull to execute the shot.
You will also get to a point where pin movement is mostly a mental thing; anticipation primarily. Shooting up close at a target or using a lock on your release will help with that.

 

[Pucky Freak]

Don't be afraid to move things around. You have infinite draw length adj with the string/cables, and the loop. The bow draw length sets the string position to your face, loop length sets your release arm position. Too short or too long of a loop will move you around when you pull to execute the shot.

Thanks. I know I have to recalibrate my sight now that I shortened the loop. I'll keep in mind that I can also twist the string to make additional adjustments, and/or make a new, slightly longer loop if need be.

 

[WapitiBob]

That loop is plenty long.

 

[Ajax2744]

Sounds like you got it figured out. But remember target panic doesn't mean you are shooting inaccurately. It just means as soon as you line up the bull you inadvertently punch the trigger, which typically leads to lower scores. But a good shooter could punch the trigger all day long and hold 3" groups at 30. But learning proper back tension for 99% of shooters will increase over all scores and accuracy. Also I find lightening the trigger weight will actually cause more punching because if it's set light you really won't get feed back if you punch or not which will lead to you thinking everything is good. I would practice blank bail with a heavy trigger without a sight off the bow. Also that being said a thumb release won't cure target panic it will just change which finger punches the trigger. I switch between a thumb button and a resistance release to keep everything in check and it has helped tremendously. I guess we will put that to the test at T.A.C. this weekend.

 

[N2TRKYS]

There’s a zero chance I would ever shoot a back tension or handheld release in a hunting situation. Never knew so many folks couldn’t shoot a wrist release accurately. Very odd, indeed.

 

[WapitiBob]

A surprise release isn't for everybody and despite what the Internet thinks is "proper", nobody winning those big cardboard checks is executing their release by squeezing their shoulder blades together.