I Wish Them Well, Wolves verus Elk Hoof Rot Disease

[BigHornRam]

I do not sense a scientific mind operating in you.



There are endless examples to draw information from to at least stimulate valid curiosity. You sound like all you offer is an open and shut case advocating for a repeat of the thousands of year old, and totally destructive patterns of herding societies.



For a decade I attended the Yellowstone Institute every summer and took one classes after another. Many were about predator prey relationships. I did this both before and after wolf reintroduction.



Surely you must be aware of the many ecological problems that were solved with the return of the apex predator.



First of all the elk were in such overabundant numbers that they browsed down young aspen for decades until there was no renewal of the Aspen forest, hence no material for beavers to build dams with, hence almost no watershed storage, hence no habitat for the animals that depended on water.



The riparian zones were being trashed by elk hanging out there, just as cattle do elsewhere. Their hooves plow the land they fertilize it and this results in unnatural brush growing which maximizes fire damage when wildfires come through. Just the mere presence of wolves kept them out of the lush areas which rebounded quickly with the return of wolves. The ecology of fear at work here and with rodents not moving around as much in the presence smaller predators. End results,,, far less lymes disease transfer to people. Back to YNP



There were so few deer back then and the land was overgrazed by elk and the browse lines were so high that deer had no access.



All that changed in an ecological heartbeat when wolves were returned.



On other predator notes surely as a biologist you must be aware of the way predators self limit their own numbers if unhunted.



Adolf Murie prior to WW2 with wild canines showed that if the pack alpha dominant male/female were killed then and only then subordinate pack members began breeding.



Surely you must have learned that when dominant mountain lions are hunted and killed, the populations of sub-adult mountain lions soars. The Big Toms are killing machines of young lions.



You must known that British Columbia, especially Vancouver Island is the lion hunting capitol of North America, and also has the highest concentration of lions in NA. Mostly they are adolescents lion, and they in turn created the highest numbers of domestic animals being killed and attacks on humans.



Examples of successful predator bio-remediation abound as do lessons of the problems hunting predatots create. All I hear from you is nay-saying.



I am a life long hunter and a biologist, but the biologist will always come first

A person with a "scientific" mind would clearly understand that the Yellowstone Institute is not free from it's own bias.

 

[TheTone]

A person with a "scientific" mind would clearly understand that the Yellowstone Institute is not free from it's own bias.

Just looking at the staff page it looks high on philanthropy, HR and not much else. Two educators but no background on them and no published works I could find.

 

[BigHornRam]

Here you go @Mustangs Rule . Here's an Institute that appears to share your world concerns except they believe proper grazing practices can be the solution, not the problem. Look it over and give me some critical feedback.

The Savory Network ⋆ Savory Institute

Inspired by the decentralized and diverse networks found in nature, the Savory Global Network is comprised of accredited Savory Hubs, Holistic Management educators, and EOV Monitors and Verifiers.

savory.global

 

[Hunting Wife]

When elk are gathered by the hundreds, thousands even. Fed all winter, are in unaturally large condensed numbers, basicaaly free of predators, placed in containments areas, are exposed to high levels of ther own poop and pee, run though chutes and screened for CWD, thier wildness is severely compromised.

Again, I don’t know where you are getting your information but a lot of it is simply incorrect. These areas are not predator free by any stretch…wolves, mountain lions, coyotes and bears are common. There is currently no containment or running of animals through chutes. That was a 5 year study for brucellosis that ended in 2012 or something and had nothing to do with CWD. I have no love lost for feedgrounds but lets at least be factual.

I do not sense a scientific mind operating in you.

And I sense from you a mind more inclined to misinterpretation of data to support emotion-driven beliefs and hyperbole than critical evaluation of the factors at play in various ecological situations.

Also, please point to where I have rejected the basic ecological services provided by predators. I am well aware of the benefits a full complement of predators provide to ecosystems. That in no way means predators are the solution to every ecological problem, which seems to be your stance. Even in your Yellowstone example, the GYE remains a highly altered and non-naturally functioning ecosystem despite the presence of its full suite of predators. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Brittany Chukarman]

Wolves sure do target feed grounds

Wolves kill 19 elk in one night on southwest Wyoming feedground

A pack of wolves killed 19 elk Tuesday night on the McNeel Elk Feedground near Bondurant in an event not seen to this degree before in Wyoming.

trib.com

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Again, I don’t know where you are getting your information but a lot of it is simply incorrect. These areas are not predator free by any stretch…wolves, mountain lions, coyotes and bears are common. There is currently no containment or running of animals through chutes. That was a 5 year study for brucellosis that ended in 2012 or something and had nothing to do with CWD. I have no love lost for feedgrounds but lets at least be factual.


And I sense from you a mind more inclined to misinterpretation of data to support emotion-driven beliefs and hyperbole than critical evaluation of the factors at play in various ecological situations.

Also, please point to where I have rejected the basic ecological services provided by predators. I am well aware of the benefits a full complement of predators provide to ecosystems. That in no way means predators are the solution to every ecological problem, which seems to be your stance. Even in your Yellowstone example, the GYE remains a highly altered and non-naturally functioning ecosystem despite the presence of its full suite of predators. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

This post has spun far away from my original intention.



A relatively new disease of elk in Washington and Oregon, Hoof Rot, has shown up in SE Washington and NE Oregon where there are wolves. I hope they are able slow or stop the disease in that area.



Stop There

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Wolves sure do target feed grounds

Wolves kill 19 elk in one night on southwest Wyoming feedground

A pack of wolves killed 19 elk Tuesday night on the McNeel Elk Feedground near Bondurant in an event not seen to this degree before in Wyoming.

trib.com

I should have been more specific. I was refering to the Jackson Hole Elk Refuge

 

[flatcoat]

I should have been more specific. I was refering to the Jackson Hole Elk Refuge

The Gros Ventre pack kills elk on the refuge with regualrity all winter long.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

The Gros Ventre pack kills elk on the refuge with regualrity all winter long.

Thank you. I did not know that

 

[Pmacc60]

I just can’t. I can seriously drive myself crazy trying to correct misinterpretation, cherry-picked “facts” and hyperbole, and for what?

First I’ve ever heard of a prion disease called scabies wiping out all the bighorns though. Must be very cutting edge

Also still waiting for the wolves to fix the foot rot at the Elk Refuge. They’ve had several decades now…I want my money back.

Sometimes a couple sentences just sums it all up ! Still chuckling after reading this ! Thank you Hunting Wife with Monday morning common sense ! Kudos
!

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Here you go @Mustangs Rule . Here's an Institute that appears to share your world concerns except they believe proper grazing practices can be the solution, not the problem. Look it over and give me some critical feedback.

The Savory Network ⋆ Savory Institute

Inspired by the decentralized and diverse networks found in nature, the Savory Global Network is comprised of accredited Savory Hubs, Holistic Management educators, and EOV Monitors and Verifiers.

savory.global

Thank you. I will do that

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Also still waiting for the wolves to fix the foot rot at the Elk Refuge. They’ve had several decades now…I want my money back.

It is unfortunate that you either chose not to, or actually were unable to example two of the most important qualities of a person trained in science.



One is the ability apply critical thinking and observe situations, in this case two environmental equations that involved elk, a disease of elk and wolves and then separate out and compare the variable factors.



On the one hand we had a disease in an animal population, hoof rot in elk at the Jackson Hole Elk feeding grounds, that has been firmly established for two decades, is present in large numbers in a herd of maybe thousands, and has an unstoppable method of disease transfer.



The elk at the feeding grounds live in barnyard conditions, packed standing together in mud, feces and urine.



Any type of bio remediation by wolves there would be pure fantasy.



In the other wildlife equation, SE Washington and NE Oregon, we have an established predator guild, and a disease, elk hoof rot, just coming into the area with very few cases, a hand full really. Barring trails there are no places where elk could gather in the same numbers in a place of ideal disease transfer.





The situation in SE Washington and NE Oregon is an exact match for possible wolf bio remediation of elk hoof rot,,,,there,,,just there,,, as it matches the formula offered by a cutting edge wildlife biologist whose specially is wildlife diseases.



Yet you could not even see any of that potential for bio-mediation via selective predation of infected elk, just like most of those who responded.



They are simply not trained in science to see and separate variables and evaluate them But you are and you just lumped two very different wildlife situations together as equals, which they most certainly are not.

 

[Hunting Wife]

It is unfortunate that you either chose not to, or actually were unable to example two of the most important qualities of a person trained in science.



One is the ability apply critical thinking and observe situations, in this case two environmental equations that involved elk, a disease of elk and wolves and then separate out and compare the variable factors.



On the one hand we had a disease in an animal population, hoof rot in elk at the Jackson Hole Elk feeding grounds, that has been firmly established for two decades, is present in large numbers in a herd of maybe thousands, and has an unstoppable method of disease transfer.



The elk at the feeding grounds live in barnyard conditions, packed standing together in mud, feces and urine.



Any type of bio remediation by wolves there would be pure fantasy.



In the other wildlife equation, SE Washington and NE Oregon, we have an established predator guild, and a disease, elk hoof rot, just coming into the area with very few cases, a hand full really. Barring trails there are no places where elk could gather in the same numbers in a place of ideal disease transfer.





The situation in SE Washington and NE Oregon is an exact match for possible wolf bio remediation of elk hoof rot,,,,there,,,just there,,, as it matches the formula offered by a cutting edge wildlife biologist whose specially is wildlife diseases.



Yet you could not even see any of that potential for bio-mediation via selective predation of infected elk, just like most of those who responded.



They are simply not trained in science to see and separate variables and evaluate them But you are and you just lumped two very different wildlife situations together as equals, which they most certainly are not.

Not even going to bother reading from you further. I have actually worked on the very issues you want to argue about, yet you refuse to acknowledge that you fail to get even the basic facts on this subject correct. Not worth my time to engage in that type of discussion. Not sure I’ve ever encountered another “biologist” peddling quite your variety of “science”.

Your posts make it painfully obvious you a) have an agenda, and will twist the science to support it and b) don’t have a clue what you are talking about.

 

[np307]

 

[MTTW]

These magic wolf threads are slowly restoring my faith in barstool biology. In all fairness though, the magic wolf studies that each contradict the study before them have also played a part.

 

[longbow51]

We have plenty of real-time twisted science going on to waste real time worrying over magic wolves that only predate on elk walking funny and never on birthing cows or calves.

 

[TheTone]

In the other wildlife equation, SE Washington and NE Oregon, we have an established predator guild, and a disease, elk hoof rot, just coming into the area with very few cases, a hand full really. Barring trails there are no places where elk could gather in the same numbers in a place of ideal disease transfer.The situation in SE Washington and NE Oregon is an exact match for possible wolf bio remediation of elk hoof rot,,,,there,,,just there,,, as it matches the formula offered by a cutting edgewildlife biologist whose specially is wildlife diseases.

I hate to break it to you but Oregon and Washington both feed elk on a pretty large scale. The only wolf I’ve seen in Oregon was near a feed ground, it looked near death and was living under one of the hay sheds

 

[BigHornRam]

Appears to me that @Mustangs Rule likes to get spanked by @Hunting Wife .

 

[Gerald Martin]

We have plenty of real-time twisted science going on to waste real time worrying over magic wolves that only predate on elk walking funny and never on birthing cows or calves.

What some folks fail to realize is the new generation of gray wolves are “smart wolves 2.0”, not to be confused with the original “non native super wolves “ that were reintroduced.

While the introduced wolves ate everything with life and breath,from insects to ungulates, even stealing infants from the cribs they were sleeping in, wolf generation 2.0 are a more enlightened and helpful type of predator, focused on ending diseases and dispersing overpopulated ungulates in specific locales.

I didn’t graduate from any major university but I have had extensive studies in sarcasm from Hunttalk U. and I note there is an amazing phenomenon that associates with wolf discussions. After exhausting research and countless hours of reading responses I have concluded that wolves are actually mind control agents who not only have the ability to run down their prey, they also infect a significant portion of the human population mentally.

This infection is expressed hyperbolically with extreme statements both pro wolf or anti-wolf. Truth statements about wolves tend to resemble religious arguments rather than an examination of data points and logical conclusions.

In summary, I have concluded that like birds, wolves aren’t actually real. They are just mind control agents the government is using to alter our understanding of reality so they can control us.