“I don’t want you hunting this outfit.”

[Wildabeest]

Would it be theft of antlers thought if the elk was killed on his property without permission? They had no right to be on that property or take that elk. It may have been taken by a hunter but it may as well been a dead head since they did it illegally

It was a different elk on the same hunt. There’s no evidence that the elk the rancher took was taken on private.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I really didn't get the vibe this was a mistake like the wandering dot isn't exactly over you. Or a boundary is so far off in relation to OnX.

I hear that, I just think sometimes if you go looking for a fight (hard to reach public access, hunting tight to the boundary), you just might find one. These guys did. Hard to feel bad for them.

All I know that I had an experience with OnX and private property lines where I was bird hunting a creek bottom and had a rancher’s fence a hundred yards or so in front of me. Looked at OnX as I headed towards the fence and assumed that the line was where the rancher had his fence. Never crossed the fence or even touched it as I hunted along side it down the creek bottom, checked my GPS somewhere along the route and my ONX track showed me to be twenty plus yards onto private property even though I was five plus yards on the public side of the fence.


I moved away from the fence until I was on public as defined by OnX and continued my hunt. Did I trespass, or was OnX wrong? I dont know to this day. What would have happened if I had been confronted by a warden and charged with trespassing? I don’t know.
I do know enough about potential situations we encounter with hunting that I have a delineation in my judgement of other hunters that doesn’t automatically apply the “poacher” or “criminal” label in some scenarios and does in others. I’ve been on the wrong side of legal in accidental or unintentional situations enough to know that some of those scenarios could have been spun to paint me in a negative light if folks wanted to.

I killed a cow and a calf one hunt when I only had one elk tag. Greedy poacher…. Except for the fact that I thought the calf was actually the cow that I had just shot and didn’t realize that the limping was from another hunter’s bullet days before. The fact that my cow was lying dead thirty yards away from me as I watched this calf limp away in low light was unknown at the time. I backed out and spent a cold night in my Suburban because I didn’t want to push the elk I thought I had wounded onto private property and not recover it. Went back in the morning and gridded the hillside until I saw the calf bedded and finished it off thinking I was completing the action I had started.

That’s when I realized this was a different elk and took care of field dressing that calf before retracing my track the night before and found the cow I had shot lying less than thirty yards from where I was when I saw the calf limping away 300 yards from me. At that point in the track there wasn’t any blood for me to follow and my best interpretation of reality wasn’t what was actually true. So I killed two elk when I had one tag. Am I a poacher because of it?

The warden that I self reported to when I got back to civilization was satisfied to write me a warning citation and confiscate the carcass of the calf. I’ve never had any further ramifications from a legal standpoint since that incident. I have to say that multiple other scenarios of how I could have handled that situation crossed my mind afterwards. Self reporting eliminated legal repercussions but it didn’t change the facts of anything I did when I was breaking the law unintentionally.


I didn’t self report the potential trespass. Am I a trespasser? I don’t know. I just know that I don’t have as cut and dried opinions about the actions of others that are outside of the law and not in character with what I see as representative of the rest of their actions as I used to have.

 

[Wildabeest]

All I know that I had an experience with OnX and private property lines where I was bird hunting a creek bottom and had a rancher’s fence a hundred yards or so in front of me. Looked at OnX as I headed towards the fence and assumed that the line was where the rancher had his fence. Never crossed the fence or even touched it as I hunted along side it down the creek bottom, checked my GPS somewhere along the route and my ONX track showed me to be twenty plus yards onto private property even though I was five plus yards on the public side of the fence.


I moved away from the fence until I was on public as defined by OnX and continued my hunt. Did I trespass, or was OnX wrong? I dont know to this day. What would have happened if I had been confronted by a warden and charged with trespassing? I don’t know.
I do know enough about potential situations we encounter with hunting that I have a delineation in my judgement of other hunters that doesn’t automatically apply the “poacher” or “criminal” label in some scenarios and does in others. I’ve been on the wrong side of legal in accidental or unintentional situations enough to know that some of those scenarios could have been spun to paint me in a negative light if folks wanted to.

I killed a cow and a calf one hunt when I only had one elk tag. Greedy poacher…. Except for the fact that I thought the calf was actually the cow that I had just shot and didn’t realize that the limping was from another hunter’s bullet days before. The fact that my cow was lying dead thirty yards away from me as I watched this calf limp away in low light was unknown at the time. I backed out and spent a cold night in my Suburban because I didn’t want to push the elk I thought I had wounded onto private property and not recover it. Went back in the morning and gridded the hillside until I saw the calf bedded and finished it off thinking I was completing the action I had started.

That’s when I realized this was a different elk and took care of field dressing that calf before retracing my track the night before and found the cow I had shot lying less than thirty yards from where I was when I saw the calf limping away 300 yards from me. At that point in the track there wasn’t any blood for me to follow and my best interpretation of reality wasn’t what was actually true. So I killed two elk when I had one tag. Am I a poacher because of it?

The warden that I self reported to when I got back to civilization was satisfied to write me a warning citation and confiscate the carcass of the calf. I’ve never had any further ramifications from a legal standpoint since that incident. I have to say that multiple other scenarios of how I could have handled that situation crossed my mind afterwards. Self reporting eliminated legal repercussions but it didn’t change the facts of anything I did when I was breaking the law unintentionally.


I didn’t self report the potential trespass. Am I a trespasser? I don’t know. I just know that I don’t have as cut and dried opinions about the actions of others that are outside of the law and not in character with what I see as representative of the rest of their actions as I used to have.

Yep. Anybody’s guess on the below as to whether that homeowner built his outbuilding on state land or OnX is wrong. That fence line predates the home and is 30’ into the state land according to OnX and extends thru the next private parcel to the east.

On the east boundary of that state section is the Gallatin / Park County line - again OnX is showing the state land boundary well off of the actual county line, amd showing bordering private land in Park County actually extending into Gallatin. That’s not likely as it would be a nightmare from a county tax standpoint. Further north of the state land parcel, OnX shows the property boundary going right thru the middle of a house whereas the county line is showing a more reasonable place the property line would be.

Given all of that, my guess is that OnX is wrong on the actual property boundaries.

 

[elkduds]

View attachment 416491

 

[thomas89]

Don't you worry I shot one a couple/few days later.

 

[thomas89]

So I killed two elk when I had one tag. Am I a poacher because of it?



I didn’t self report the potential trespass. Am I a trespasser?

Had to give this some thought. I don't know that I'll articulate it well, but IMO there is a very clear difference to both of your situations. I've done the same. Honest mistake.

I think the difference is thumbing your nose at a landowner, KNOWING you were trespassing, publishing a video for content, and THEN getting caught and all of a sudden, "oh goodness me I can't believe I made that mistake!". I think we all know that story stinks. They HAD to have known they were on private when they shot that bull. No way that group of guys on a trip to hug the line, weren't constantly checking their locations. No way they set up for a shot, checked their location in regards to the boundary, MOVED, shot the bull, and then just forgot all about checking their location? It's the flat out dishonesty for me.

The dog's found cripples in the reeds that I didn't shoot, do I add those wasted away birds to my strap or finish them off and pitch them back into the swamp?

If you're a poacher then I'm a poacher, and if you're a trespasser, I'm a trespasser. You wouldn't be worst company I've ever kept.

 

[Hunting Wife]

I’m not sure how this trespass happened; intentional, accidental, whatever but this is another reminder for folks that OnX on your phone (nor any other consumer grade software/hardware for that matter) simply aren’t accurate enough when feet of accuracy matter. I’ve experienced this myself, multiple times.

Not only have few, if any, land management entities revisited 1900’s era surveys with modern technology, but the accuracy of most consumer-grade devices just isn’t good enough. The layers in OnX are only as good as the data collected by counties, land management agencies, tax assessors, etc. Newsflash- they aren’t going out and resurveying parcels with modern tech to obtain these digital files. It’s all most likely derived from files digitized from a desktop, often by a college student or volunteer, and provided as the best data available.

This is exactly the reason I’m leary about folks emboldened by the corner crossing case in Wyoming just going forth armed with OnX and a prayer to establish precedent in other states. Equal chances it goes sideways just because, absent an actual survey marker, the tech isn’t good enough to pinpoint a corner, or a boundary, precisely for a variety of reasons.

 

[BuzzH]

I’m not sure how this trespass happened; intentional, accidental, whatever but this is another reminder for folks that OnX on your phone (nor any other consumer grade software/hardware for that matter) simply aren’t accurate enough when feet of accuracy matter. I’ve experienced this myself, multiple times.

Not only have few, if any, land management entities revisited 1900’s era surveys with modern technology, but the accuracy of most consumer-grade devices just isn’t good enough. The layers in OnX are only as good as the data collected by counties, land management agencies, tax assessors, etc. Newsflash- they aren’t going out and resurveying parcels with modern tech to obtain these digital files. It’s all most likely derived from files digitized from a desktop, often by a college student or volunteer, and provided as the best data available.

This is exactly the reason I’m leary about folks emboldened by the corner crossing case in Wyoming just going forth armed with OnX and a prayer to establish precedent in other states. Equal chances it goes sideways just because, absent an actual survey marker, the tech isn’t good enough to pinpoint a corner, or a boundary, precisely for a variety of reasons.

My recommendation would be to locate the corners long before hunting season if possible. If you inadvertently wander onto private looking for a section marker on unposted land outside hunting season, you have to informed you're trespassing and put on notice.

 

[Bighorner]

AND ANOTHER THING

You mean to tell me these guys all stood around after shooting that bull, and not a single one looked at their OnX to see how close they were to private? Or that, oh snap, we crossed the line to get him to this point. Just gross all around. Their entire intention was to flirt with public and private that trip, that OnX info would have been constantly looked at. I'm voting they knew they screwed up and tried to keep it hush hush.

Its not what you know it's what you can prove.

 

[Bighorner]

Yep. Anybody’s guess on the below as to whether that homeowner built his outbuilding on state land or OnX is wrong. That fence line predates the home and is 30’ into the state land according to OnX and extends thru the next private parcel to the east.

On the east boundary of that state section is the Gallatin / Park County line - again OnX is showing the state land boundary well off of the actual county line, amd showing bordering private land in Park County actually extending into Gallatin. That’s not likely as it would be a nightmare from a county tax standpoint. Further north of the state land parcel, OnX shows the property boundary going right thru the middle of a house whereas the county line is showing a more reasonable place the property line would be.

Given all of that, my guess is that OnX is wrong on the actual property boundaries.

View attachment 416591

That is an excellent example of how muddy the waters can get. OnX is using the best publicly available property information. Best avaible dose not equal guaranteed correct. It is entirely possible OnX could be 30 yards off without the benefit of a current or recent land survey.

 

[BuzzH]

That is an excellent example of how muddy the waters can get. OnX is using the best publicly available property information. Best avaible dose not equal guaranteed correct. It is entirely possible OnX could be 30 yards off without the benefit of a current or recent land survey.

So, what data set would a landowner use to "prove" onx is off 30 yards (which is doubtful), on an unsurveyed boundary?

Also, what would a warden use, if not onx, to determine a trespass to hunt violation?

Finally, what would a prosecuter use to prosecute a hunter for trespass to hunt that is beyond a reasonable doubt?

 

[Bighorner]

So, what data set would a landowner use to "prove" onx is off 30 yards (which is doubtful), on an unsurveyed boundary?

Also, what would a warden use, if not onx, to determine a trespass to hunt violation?

Finally, what would a prosecuter use to prosecute a hunter for trespass to hunt that is beyond a reasonable doubt?

A legal survey. I would imagine every app has a disclaimer regarding the legal use of there data. I think a defense lawyer could show reasonable doubt out to 30 yards between mapping grade boundaries and age of the actual data onX is using. OnX is not the end all be all. Its just close enough and convenient.

 

[sclancy27]

So, what data set would a landowner use to "prove" onx is off 30 yards (which is doubtful), on an unsurveyed boundary?

Also, what would a warden use, if not onx, to determine a trespass to hunt violation?

Finally, what would a prosecuter use to prosecute a hunter for trespass to hunt that is beyond a reasonable doubt?

IME, Warden's use OnX and won't cite you if it's clear you were "on public" according to OnX. Instances where OnX are wrong are rare, but happen.

OnX, in MT, uses our Cadastral dataset. While this dataset can be wrong I think it's usually the projection that is wrong. So the data is "right" but the survey system they used to project the data over the map (to create what we see) doesn't match the Cadastral data and the map data correctly. Thus you get an overlap or boundaries that don't match up.

Apps like OnX do have legal statements on their apps, but, IME, these legal statements likely apply more to activities that actually need legal survey (selling property, building location, etc) than trespassing as Warden's use OnX as the general test.

 

[BuzzH]

A legal survey. I would imagine every app has a disclaimer regarding the legal use of there data. I think a defense lawyer could show reasonable doubt out to 30 yards between mapping grade boundaries and age of the actual data onX is using. OnX is not the end all be all. Its just close enough and convenient.

How often do you think a legal survey is put in without a fence? I dont often see that at work, but I suppose it happens.

 

[Bighorner]

I see encroachments more than the average person. They are almost always as result of relying on GIS boundaries in place of surveys more than the average person.

For some prospective, corners in my area were fist set in the 1880s. A lot of them have been revisited, remonumented, and resurveyed, but no all. Some were even proven fraudulent in the court of law. Some may have been suspected as fraudulent a d never addressed. All these variables play into the accuracy of the GIS boundaries on your phone. Its pretty easy to find a corner from 1997 using OnX. It is a different story finding a marked stone from 1889, but both hold the same weight concerning the actual boundaries on the ground.

 

[Bighorner]

[QUOTE="sclancy27, post: 4082158, member: 53294"

Apps like OnX do have legal statements on their apps, but, IME, these legal statements likely apply more to activities that actually need legal survey (selling property, building location, etc)
[/QUOTE]

I agree, but a legal survey would be reasonable in a court room. Its entirely possible the legal survey would be dead nuts in line with onX, 30 yards to your favor or 30 yards to the landowners. If something is that close I would want to do aleast a little homework on the age of the survey.

 

[sclancy27]

I agree, but a legal survey would be reasonable in a court room. Its entirely possible the legal survey would be dead nuts in line with onX, 30 yards to your favor or 30 yards to the landowners. If something is that close I would want to do aleast a little homework on the age of the survey.

I think it would have to be a really specific instance for a judge to want a legal survey over the "best available technology" to determine trespass. I highly doubt a Warden would cite trespass if you had tracks, waypoints, etc. that only showed you on "public" regardless if a survey showed otherwise or not. Now, if there is physical evidence, as there obviously was in this case (tracks, blood, drag marks, etc) that contradict the OnX data, I have seen them cite people.

 

[Bighorner]

I think it would have to be a really specific instance for a judge to want a legal survey over the "best available technology" to determine trespass. I highly doubt a Warden would cite trespass if you had tracks, waypoints, etc. that only showed you on "public" regardless if a survey showed otherwise or not. Now, if there is physical evidence, as there obviously was in this case (tracks, blood, drag marks, etc) that contradict the OnX data, I have seen them cite people.

There is a difference between the best avaiable technology and the best available evidence, but I see your point.

 

[Dakotakid]

Totally agree.

But, don't you find it odd that stealing a set of antlers from a legally killed elk...that no hunter harassment ticket was issued? Or better yet, how much more clear does hunter harassment have to be before a citation is issued?

Yet, every possible charge was given to the hunter...not that I'm disagreeing.

Like I said, double standard is getting to the point of being ridiculous.

“a) No person shall with the intent to prevent or hinder the lawful taking of any wildlife: (i) Interfere with the lawful taking of or the process of lawfully taking any wildlife; (ii) Engage in any activity intended to threaten or otherwise affect the behavior of any wildlife.”

Doesn’t exactly fit? That is a link from ai that took to Wyoming statute.

 

[Irrelevant]

Also, aerials can be "off" just as much as the parcel lines.