I lived in a couple different states in the East (Ohio and Virginia) for most of my life and then moved here to Idaho a few years ago. I'd heard and read about the two different methods of counting antler points of course, but hadn't talked to anyone who used the Western method till I moved here. Now I like to engage, just for fun, in a bit of good-natured ribbing about how the Western born people only count half of the antler points on the animal, even though they still count all of the eyes, legs, nostrils etc. It has got me curious though, where did this difference originate, and why? And where is the line at which hunters start counting all of the points on a cervid?
History of Eastern and Western Style Antler Point Count
- Thread starter Blue Rope
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Schaaf
Well-known member
As civilization has expanded farther into the western world, those of us in the West possess a much more advanced understanding of counting and generally breathe with our mouths closed.
D
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*Excepting Utah
Schaaf
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is the western thing to just call it a 4 pointer? even if its 4x3?
everyone i know calls it a 4x4, or a 4x3, or 4x5
IMO, just reporting total number of points is meaningless. i wanna know how many are on each side.
that said, i just shot a buck with a broken antler on his left side. so i actually can just call him a 4 pointer, or is he a 4x0?
everyone i know calls it a 4x4, or a 4x3, or 4x5
IMO, just reporting total number of points is meaningless. i wanna know how many are on each side.
that said, i just shot a buck with a broken antler on his left side. so i actually can just call him a 4 pointer, or is he a 4x0?
That brings up an interesting question. I'm not sure. If you look up PA, or KY record elk, the articles I found in a quick search don't bother to mention antler point count at all, they just tell you the score. Do eastern elk hunters count the points on an elk's antlers the same way they would on a deer? One would think so, but maybe not. To complicate things further, the dude who holds the record PA elk is from Washington.
RobertD
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My best guess is because mule deer and elk follow more typical antler growth patterns for their species a higher % of the time.
So many top end bucks and bulls are 6x6 and 4x4 respectively. Big whitetails on the other hand can be 4×4, 4x5, 5×6, etc
So many top end bucks and bulls are 6x6 and 4x4 respectively. Big whitetails on the other hand can be 4×4, 4x5, 5×6, etc
The way I've heard it most often is they'll say 4x5 or 4x3, and sometimes 4x4, but often, if it's the same on both, they'll just say 4 pointer. I know that if I hear someone here say they got a 5 or 6 point buck, they got a big deer.
I have always only counted points on the main beams. Not eye guards on bucks. 4x4,4x3,5x5,fork.
Looking at some blacktail racks now that if I counted the eye guards would be way more than big 3x3's and a 4x4.
Extra points I guess count on elk. Seen lots of "7x7's" that I woulda called 6x6 with bumps this year to go with the legit full ones.
But I have bad sinus' and breath with my mouth open at 7500' most times.................
Looking at some blacktail racks now that if I counted the eye guards would be way more than big 3x3's and a 4x4.
Extra points I guess count on elk. Seen lots of "7x7's" that I woulda called 6x6 with bumps this year to go with the legit full ones.
But I have bad sinus' and breath with my mouth open at 7500' most times.................
pabearhunter
Well-known member
HHhmm Now I know why people from the west use to call me SPIKE .
I didn't even know people still counted points. All I ever seem to hear anymore is what the critter will score. I do have to admire folks that can look at a rack a thousand yards away and judge the length of the main beam along with all the tines, the girth at the base and the inside spread. Then tally it all up in their head, all in about 30 seconds or so. While here I am pulling out a measuring stick just to see if the fish in my hand is long enough to keep. I have always felt that scoring the animal like that is kinda disrespectful to the critter. Like judging a woman's appearance on a scale of one to ten. A little crass maybe. I myself just like to judge a rack for its aesthetic appeal and nothing more. As for women I just admire their... well, their assets and let it go at that.
idelkslayer
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I have also wondered about the history of the different point counting methods but have never heard anything definitive. Something traumatic must have happened to eastern hunters that makes them count points incorrectly and hang their deer from the neck instead of the back legs as god intended.
In my opinion, the eastern count lacks enough detail to accurately describe a buck. A 10 point could be a 5x5, 4x6, 3x7, 2x8, 1x9 or even a 0x10. Do eastern guys immediately follow up the total count with how many points are on each side or do they just assume as near to an even split as possible? Why not cut to the chase and just say a 5-pt, or if not symmetrical call it a 4x5?
The western count offers simplicity and descriptive detail. If you say you shot a 4 point, I know it had four points on each side. Or you might tell me you shot a 4x3, I immediately know what you're talking about. One might clarify, in the case of mule deer, that they shot a 4-pt with brow tines. Since mule deer often do not have brow tines it makes sense to compare apples to apples by not including them in the point count. Sure it adds into the B&C score but amongst friends we just want to know you are talking about a true 4-pt and not a 3x3 with brow tines.
I have noticed a disturbing trend among some western hunters to use the eastern counting method when referring to whitetails. I blame social media, hunting TV, and transplants from eastern states for spreading this false and pervasive doctrine. I hope we can all take a stand against this unprovoked attack on our western hunting heritage.
In my opinion, the eastern count lacks enough detail to accurately describe a buck. A 10 point could be a 5x5, 4x6, 3x7, 2x8, 1x9 or even a 0x10. Do eastern guys immediately follow up the total count with how many points are on each side or do they just assume as near to an even split as possible? Why not cut to the chase and just say a 5-pt, or if not symmetrical call it a 4x5?
The western count offers simplicity and descriptive detail. If you say you shot a 4 point, I know it had four points on each side. Or you might tell me you shot a 4x3, I immediately know what you're talking about. One might clarify, in the case of mule deer, that they shot a 4-pt with brow tines. Since mule deer often do not have brow tines it makes sense to compare apples to apples by not including them in the point count. Sure it adds into the B&C score but amongst friends we just want to know you are talking about a true 4-pt and not a 3x3 with brow tines.
I have noticed a disturbing trend among some western hunters to use the eastern counting method when referring to whitetails. I blame social media, hunting TV, and transplants from eastern states for spreading this false and pervasive doctrine. I hope we can all take a stand against this unprovoked attack on our western hunting heritage.
geetar
Well-known member
I’ve often wondered about this difference. I’m an easterner but muleys are 4 x or 5 and whitetails are 8 and 10 pts. I’d still call an eastern elk a 5x or 6x if I drew a Kentucky or PA tag.
np307
Well-known member
Here's the way it ought to be:
Whitetails are counted by the eastern method. Total number of points long enough to hang a ring on.
Mule deer and elk are counted by the western method.
Whitetails are counted by the eastern method. Total number of points long enough to hang a ring on.
Mule deer and elk are counted by the western method.
Bambistew
Well-known member
Its mental game that hunters (and fishermen play). I don't care how people count the points. I usually call them by their main frame on one side. If a guy from the east says the deer has a bunch of points, odds are its a dink until it gets into double digits 10+. What I've discovered over the years, is the size of the mule deer gets smaller as more adjectives that are used to describe it.
Hunters tend to skew the adjectives to make the buck seem bigger, instead of going the other way around. You can make a 3point sound huge or small. For instances. I could say I shot a 4x5 (or a 3x4 with eyeguards) with a 26" spread. What I could be describing is a 3yo spindly 3point, with 3/4" eyeguards, a 3" cheater on one side, and a 18" inside spread. Which sounds bigger?
As far as eastern count. See analogy above, but instead of adding adjectives, they keep it to the absolute minimum of points only. There is a huge difference between a 80" 8point and a 160" 8 point, but both are 8 points.
Some states like ME rank their deer by how much the weigh.
Hunters tend to skew the adjectives to make the buck seem bigger, instead of going the other way around. You can make a 3point sound huge or small. For instances. I could say I shot a 4x5 (or a 3x4 with eyeguards) with a 26" spread. What I could be describing is a 3yo spindly 3point, with 3/4" eyeguards, a 3" cheater on one side, and a 18" inside spread. Which sounds bigger?
As far as eastern count. See analogy above, but instead of adding adjectives, they keep it to the absolute minimum of points only. There is a huge difference between a 80" 8point and a 160" 8 point, but both are 8 points.
Some states like ME rank their deer by how much the weigh.
MarvB
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Sooo for those keen on describing their one antlered bucks by score is that spread measurement a zero or
Hilljackoutlaw
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From PA. Always counted elk and mule deer as 3x, 4x, 5x, etc... regardless of animals location. Whitetail have always been total points regardless of the animals location.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Agreed.
BTW, there ain't too many "turty-point" elk!
