Has the science left wildlife management?

[El Jason]

Deer are drawn to road sides, where they eat herbicide treated vegetation(documented), then over the following years you see developmental malformations in these deer, cranial facial malformations for example that have been documented in captive animals fed herbicides. Take the herbicides away or look at areas with less or no exposure and you don't see these malformations.

So what causes the malformations that you should not document unless you have been to college? This part of it is the easy part, this the sixth grade observational life science part of the equation.

I'm not talking developmental malformations. I'm talking compromised immune systems and/or higher incidences of mortality.

An example of this would be something such as this:

Group 1: Animals subjected to herbicide exposure
Group 2: Animals not subjected to herbicide exposure
Group 3: Animals subjected to herbicide exposure with selenium supplementation
Group 4: Animals not subjected to herbicide with selenium supplementation

Test if there is a significant difference among neonatal survival and adult survival over a four year period.

This would potentially establish a causative affect of herbicide on populations.

 

[DougFir]

I'm not talking developmental malformations. I'm talking compromised immune systems and/or higher incidences of mortality.

An example of this would be something such as this:

Group 1: Animals subjected to herbicide exposure
Group 2: Animals not subjected to herbicide exposure
Group 3: Animals subjected to herbicide exposure with selenium supplementation
Group 4: Animals not subjected to herbicide with selenium supplementation

Test if there is a significant difference among neonatal survival and adult survival over a four year period.

This would potentially establish a causative affect of herbicide on populations.

This has sort of been done: http://deerlab.org/Publ/pdfs/23.pdf In this case selenium supplementation increased fecundity 260% The herbicide exposure was documented after the fact, and was unknown at the time.

In the case of bighorn sheep on Whiskey Mountain: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10344-007-0128-9 and here: http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2002/2002-Hnilicka et al.pdf It was shown that selenium supplementation halted the downward trend and increased fecundity. Again, the herbicide exposure was not looked at as a factor at the time, I was the one that made this assertion, and I have worked with one of the lead researchers on this. It was always known that there was something missing in the equation, but it was not known what that was. These sheep's winter range being sprayed with herbicides, and the resulting biochemical affects complete this picture. These sheep decline every time their winter range is treated, and X, Y, and Z follow. These guys worked with Flueck from the first study in this post. And Joe Hutto, who I referenced before with regard to mule deer and insecticides worked on the big horn sheep research as well with John Mionczynski. I am the one making the connection to insecticides with Joe's deer. He saw the similarities with his deer, and what they had seen in bighorn sheep, but again the insecticide spraying was not initially looked at as a potential cause.

With out a control group, I supplemented mule deer in Northern Utah for several years, and saw an increase in both fecundity, and antler size(width and mass, with nice symmetry) With out a control group, I pulled the supplementation, and the herd is now in decline.

If you want to see that work done, just like I want to, then it needs to be done under the authorization of a F&G department. With my limited means, and lack of authorization, I can only work up to a certain point here in Utah. But there may be some opportunities in another state right now to make something like this happen, they were open in the past.

 

[DougFir]

Also one could test tissue and blood of affected, and non affected animals for herbicide exposure. This is currently being worked on, but so far four toxicology labs are having trouble making this happen for me right now. And we are awaiting word from a fifth.

 

[LopeHunter]

That attitude is preventing you from being taken seriously by the people with the ability to change policy. That is a shame. You may be accomplishing things for those MEs, but you are not accomplishing much by making unfounded claims based on twisted deer nut photos. But it is clear you will never accept that fact so carry on.

x2.

I have a son that is a doctor and more than once I have observed him interact with a person at a birthday party or soccer match who is 100% positive of something with medical connection. My son smiles and, unless is going to result in life-threatening consequences, my son thanks the person for sharing the observations. The assertion may be that hanging upside down daily promotes a long life, taking a gulp of olive oil nightly will prevent cancer, sleeping facing the south prevents heart disease, autism is caused by overhead power lines, etc. Maybe olive oil is the answer.

Science has a method for taking a theory and reaching conclusions. Rigorous. Peer-reviewed. That process separates compelling theories from wing nut theories from theories that can not be proved scientifically. Compelling theories attract the attention of PhDs. Compelling theories that could lead to solving a vexing issue can attract money. Several organizations have funds to spend on compelling research into the helath of wildlife population.

As for mule deer, there is a lot we do not know about why wildlife populations struggle and boom. Habitat elimination, reduction and impact are most likely having a significant negative impact. Migration barriers. Predation. The increase in the number of people out in the spring looking for antlers and repeatedly bumping pregnant does and cows is a factor in miscarriages and low birth rates. Managing for low numbers of mature bulls and bucks leads to later conception then later birthing and less time to grow strong before winter. ATVs zooming around herds. Oil and pipeline roads. Crop harvesting that is extremely efficient so less grain falls into the field. Fields put into CRP so no grain planted anymore. Winter. Drought.

So, can you start to test the theory without PhDs and a tanker truck full of money. I think you can.

Is there a single chemical in widespread use in the West near mule deer that is not used around whitetail deer in North America? My hunch is the same chemicals are used near whitetail as are near blacktail and mule deer and even the large deer known as elk. If your theory is chemicals are a key factor in mule deer health then hopefully you see the challenge of explaining away the whitetail deer's ability to not experience a similar decline as mule deer.

 

[El Jason]

DougFir,

I appreciate your candor and you taking the time to answer some questions.

I don't work in the science field any longer, but I did do a MS degree and worked in the biotech field for a while. I understand science and I understand the peer review process and rigorous scrutiny that conclusions must undergo in order to be considered scientifically valid.

That said, I do think you have likely established some correlations. However, I see a LOT of work that would need to be done in order to establish the mechanisms by which you are proposing herbicide exposure affects animal populations. Further, there are the other unexplained pink elephants, like elk, whitetail deer, and mountain goats.

I appreciate your anecdotal observations on selenium supplementation, but without controls it's hard to decipher anything from it.

Have you considered using domestic sheep and/or goats as a precursor project? The HPG function across ruminant species is very similar.

 

[DougFir]

Is there a single chemical in widespread use in the West near mule deer that is not used around whitetail deer in North America? My hunch is the same chemicals are used near whitetail as are near blacktail and mule deer and even the large deer known as elk. If your theory is chemicals are a key factor in mule deer health then hopefully you see the challenge of explaining away the whitetail deer's ability to not experience a similar decline as mule deer.

First off, its not one single chemical, it is about 200, plus the synergistic affects of the combination of any of these. Whitetails have suffered similar declines in areas where mule deer have, where malformations have been observed in association with these malformations. Its about targeting, its about where these things are used. Mule deer and black tailed deer appear to be affected more, yet the same issue have been seen in white tails. Yo need to get specific with regard to location and population.

Elk(and mountain goats) tend to avoid much of this in many places in the West, because of the way they avoid roads, and because of that habitat they occupy. But they are affected, in those places that they can not escape exposure. Forestry is the best example of this. If you look at elk herds across much of the West, UT, CO, WY etc. They have done really well, with some places offering two cow tags and a bull tag just a few years ago. But if you look to areas with intense forestry practices with lots of herbicide use, and you don't see this same level of success, you see declines, and stagnate populations.

In this case the page needs to be updated in a big way, while not forestry related, I already covered the tens of thousands of dollars spent on herbicides there in this thread: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/31-hardware-ranch-ut/

Note the selenium deficiencies and reduced fecundity here, in association with forestry practices, ie. herbicide use: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/27-lolo-zone-id/

Copper and selenium deficiencies, that go hand in hand with forestry practices. In this case you can lay a map of herbicide sprayed forest over the cases of copper and selenium deficient elk that are suffering from laminitis: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/8-south-central-wa/

Elk with under bites in association with forestry use of herbicides: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/5-bitterroot-valley-mt/ Like I have posted before, the only fault I can find in Judy's work(peer reviewed) is her assertion of how wildlife is being exposed to pesticides, I think she missed the elephant in the room on this one. Other wise the vast majority of it all checks out.

 

[El Jason]

Note the selenium deficiencies and reduced fecundity here, in association with forestry practices, ie. herbicide use: http://westernwildlifeecology.org/service/27-lolo-zone-id/

Why then, are elk through the roof in the nearby Palouse zone, which is a mix of Potlatch ground, wheat, lentils, and peas?

 

[DougFir]

DougFir,

I appreciate your candor and you taking the time to answer some questions.

I don't work in the science field any longer, but I did do a MS degree and worked in the biotech field for a while. I understand science and I understand the peer review process and rigorous scrutiny that conclusions must undergo in order to be considered scientifically valid.

That said, I do think you have likely established some correlations. However, I see a LOT of work that would need to be done in order to establish the mechanisms by which you are proposing herbicide exposure affects animal populations. Further, there are the other unexplained pink elephants, like elk, whitetail deer, and mountain goats.

I appreciate your anecdotal observations on selenium supplementation, but without controls it's hard to decipher anything from it.

Have you considered using domestic sheep and/or goats as a precursor project? The HPG function across ruminant species is very similar.

The information on selenium supplementation, outside of my Utah study, is anything but anecdotal, there is no way you had enough time to read the studies and the reference material I posted to support the work on selenium supplementation. It is all peer reviewed work, with control groups. Further more the herbicide exposure in these cases is documented as well. The only thing lacking was that they were not looked at during the initial study. People(trained wildlife biologist and researchers) that conducted the bighorn studies, concur with me on this.

 

[DougFir]

Why then, are elk through the roof in the nearby Palouse zone, which is a mix of Potlatch ground, wheat, lentils, and peas?

You tell me, and explain the condition of the Lolo elk while you are at it. But, you may have already answered yourself, wheat, lentils, and peas.........

If you want selenium in your diet, eat wheat and meat. Nutritional supplementation is exactly the kind of thing that would help if you had metabolic disorders, which the Lolo elk obviously suffer from. Do these two groups winter in different areas, do they both migrate?

 

[El Jason]

You tell me, and explain the condition of the Lolo elk while you are at it. But, you may have already answered yourself, wheat, lentils, and peas.........

If you want selenium in our diet, eat wheat and meat. Nutritional supplementation is exactly the kind of thing that would help if you had metabolic disorders, which the Lolo elk obviously suffer from. Do these two groups winter in different areas, do they both migrate?

Wouldn't the Palouse elk be subjected to a much higher amount of pesticides? Wouldn't this override any potential amounts of selenium in their feed?

They don't eat the wheat kernels too much, from what I've seen. They graze the young shoots and the bluegrass that is grown in the area.

I've spent a fair bit of time in the Lolo. It needs a stand replacement fire like no other area.

The Palouse Zone elk don't migrate any significant distance that I'm aware of.

 

[DougFir]

Wouldn't the Palouse elk be subjected to a much higher amount of pesticides? Wouldn't this override any potential amounts of selenium in their feed?

They don't eat the wheat kernels too much, from what I've seen. They graze the young shoots and the bluegrass that is grown in the area.

I've spent a fair bit of time in the Lolo. It needs a stand replacement fire like no other area.

The Palouse Zone elk don't migrate any significant distance that I'm aware of.

Migration, that is part of the equation right there, migrating elk in that part of the world have been shown to suffer from declines and stagnation, more so than do resident herds. It could be backwards, Lolo elk may have exposure issues on their winter range? This is seen frequently.

We have not established that Palouse elk are exposed to herbicides. There is obviously a difference between these herds. And one of those differences is that Lolo elk show signs and symptoms, similar to other wildlife exposed to herbicides. Something is causing their condition to be what it is, and it looks like herbicide exposure, and it quacks like herbicide exposure.

 

[TheTone]

The Palouse vs. lolo thing is exhausting; holy crap! The deer and elk I've been chasing out of lentil, pea and garbanzo fields the past few nights and early mornings look just fine and those fields are covered in chemicals. My family has a 30 year history of killing elk and deer around the Palouse and I can't say I've ever seen any birth defects, etc. I guess I did see one whitetail buck with canines, but that really isn't that strange. Based upon the lolo elk country I commonly look at herbicide exposure seems limited as the noxious weeds certainly don't seem to be seeing much treatment.

The areas with intensive forestry practices and declines in ungulates wouldn't have anything to do with higher road densities and habitat fragmentation leading to increased and easier human access and thus a lower survival rate I'm sure.

 

[DougFir]

I guess I did see one whitetail buck with canines, but that really isn't that strange.

Actual that is not normal, and is seen in selenium deficient South American huemel, with possible(yet to be confirmed) herbicide exposure. The same gene that governs under bites, would govern this as well.

I have people tell me all the time they have never seen birth defects in deer. I could say that at one time myself. But after you handle a few hundred carcasses, that's not an easy statement to make, especially if you know what you are looking at. What do the hearts, livers and kidneys look like? The kinds of malformations I am documenting are the most extreme manifestation of this. You can look at an animal with a subclinical mineral deficiency that would die if got run hard, and you would not know any difference from a perfectly healthy one standing next to it. It does not mean it is not affected, or that there is not an issue.

 

[DougFir]

TheTone, In all seriousness, do you know your way around the lymph system? Do you know what a dilated lymph vessel looks like, lymph fluid from "puss"? The chambers of the heart, what the inside of lungs should look like, how much fat should be on a kidney? Liver texture, firmness, and color?

I'm not trying to be a dick, this is the kind of stuff I was hammered with by biologists and researchers when I delved into this. I still can't answer all of those questions completely.

 

[TheTone]

I've taken apart my share of critters professionally.

 

[DougFir]

I've taken apart my share of critters professionally.

We use to butcher all of own game too, that is entirely something different than what I am talking about.

I do find it funny that now other people are making the case of wildlife being exposed to pesticides, because in this case it is supposed to make my argument moot.

I appreciate skepticism, and I like debate. But I do grow tired of people passing off anecdotal experience, while I'm apparently not allowed this. While on the other side of that coin, people believing that stating their credentials, is supposed to qualify their dismissal of a subject they are not versed in.

If anyone has something to add, or a detailed challenge of an assertion I have made, beyond some technicality of I did not extend my arm correctly when I pointed out that the sky was blue, then I'm all ears. Other possibilities on any of these cases? I'm all ears, there are bound to be some.

 

[El Jason]

Migration, that is part of the equation right there, migrating elk in that part of the world have been shown to suffer from declines and stagnation, more so than do resident herds. It could be backwards, Lolo elk may have exposure issues on their winter range? This is seen frequently.

We have not established that Palouse elk are exposed to herbicides. There is obviously a difference between these herds. And one of those differences is that Lolo elk show signs and symptoms, similar to other wildlife exposed to herbicides. Something is causing their condition to be what it is, and it looks like herbicide exposure, and it quacks like herbicide exposure.

I can guarantee you that the Palouse elk are subjected to as much, if not more, pesticide level than are the Lolo elk. As such, the Palouse elk would have exposure on their winter range too, as they don't really migrate an significant distance.

Whether there is a difference in trace mineral availability in the soil and feeds, I have no idea. However, one can also find discrepancies between the Dworshak herd numbers and the Lolo herd. The Dworshak herd is also at a very healthy level, yet the majority of the Dworshak unit is private timberground. And, the two elk herds winter in similar areas.

 

[DougFir]

I can guarantee you that the Palouse elk are subjected to as much, if not more, pesticide level than are the Lolo elk. As such, the Palouse elk would have exposure on their winter range too, as they don't really migrate an significant distance.

Whether there is a difference in trace mineral availability in the soil and feeds, I have no idea. However, one can also find discrepancies between the Dworshak herd numbers and the Lolo herd. The Dworshak herd is also at a very healthy level, yet the majority of the Dworshak unit is private timberground. And, the two elk herds winter in similar areas.

When you say "guarantee", you mean you have evidence of this ingestion, and you know which herbicide/s they have ingested, and at what times of year? You know how much was applied, when, by who, and how much it cost?

My point being that I have this information for my field work in Utah, and for other cases, in other states.

Casting doubt, on the lowest hanging fruit of what I have offered up, by arguing for exposure(I still like this angle, I really do) does not exactly make a complete case. I could concede half of my conjectural internet examples, and still be standing on very firm ground.

Clipping one wire, does not mean you have taken the place.

 

[El Jason]

Clipping one wire, does not mean you have taken the place.

I'm not trying to win or prove anything. As I've stated, there very well could be correlations that could/should be tested as causations in a hypothesis involving control populations.

You never answered my question as to whether you have considered using domestic sheep and/or goats as substitutes? You could certainly determine if there is a dose dependent causative effect of pesticides on a number of things, including the HPG axis, immune function, reproductve efficiency, thyroid function, adult survivability, etc. You could examine all of these under various levels of body condition. The sky is the limit.

 

[DougFir]

I'm not trying to win or prove anything. As I've stated, there very well could be correlations that could/should be tested as causations in a hypothesis involving control populations.

You never answered my question as to whether you have considered using domestic sheep and/or goats as substitutes? You could certainly determine if there is a dose dependent causative effect of pesticides on a number of things, including the HPG axis, immune function, reproductve efficiency, thyroid function, adult survivability, etc. You could examine all of these under various levels of body condition. The sky is the limit.

Domestic goats/sheep: Technically I can not do this. At least not intentionally. Again this would need to go through official channels. If I start intentionally pumping animals full of chemicals, its not considered science, some would call abuse. They did try to get some captive bighorn sheep research involving selenium done at Washington State University, but they never could work it in.

Much of this has already been done with laboratory rats and rabbits. While not a ruminant, rabbits are cecal digesters, and have a lot in common with ruminants. Feed rabbits and rats 2,4-D, their testicles atrophy or they don't descend, same thing we see in deer eating it. Feed rabbits and rats Imazapic and they get thyroid tumors,we see hypothyroidism in deer feeding in areas treated with this. Give Dicamba to rabbits and they have reduced fecundity, and and increased miscarriage rates, we see this in deer as well. They mix Dicamba with the 2,4-D making it more potent. Feed rabbits Tordon, and they end up with cleft palates, this birth defect occurs in the premaxilary face bones just like in deer with under bites. Feed rabbits Tryclopyr and they have skeletal abnormalities, well guess what? We see that in deer exposed to this as well. My study deer are exposed to multiple sites treated with one or more of the before listed herbicides.