H.R. 8828 introduced -Leghold and conibear traps

[BuzzH]

Most people on this board have an apathetic view toward trapping - neither positive or negative. They probably generally support the idea, but you tell them they have to put their dog on a leash or shorten the bird season. That is a great way to turn people against the idea. Now, the general public, most of them are probably against trapping from the start. Good luck telling grandma that she has to keep her dog on a leash in the NF because some trapper is trying to catch a bobcat.
You can pout on the internet about the unfairness of it all, but you are just putting nails in the coffin of the sport.

Not pouting at all.

I think Montana trappers have given everything they can at this point, no more room to compromise.

I have no problems with the current regulations and if a few dogs get killed in legally set traps because they aren't on a leash, pet owners cant educate themselves, etc. I have no problem with that either. Even being as careful as you can and following the trapping regulations as set now, its inevitable that some dogs are going to get it. Common sense pet ownership doesn't exist, see it every day.

The hypocrisy of even talking about compromise when it comes to other user groups in regard to making progress on conflicts with trappers is laughable though.

 

[huronmtns]

Here is what I did in my land trapping areas. It is something that I have never seen used before. I would post these about 200 yards from a set. This at least made dog owners aware that there is some risk in the area.
Orange paper laminated with clear plastic to make it waterproof. I would make 4 signs out of a 8x11 sheet of paper if you want to know what size these were.
When I pulled the set, I pulled the sign.

 

[BuzzH]

Here is what I did in my land trapping areas. It is something that I have never seen used before. I would post these about 200 yards from a set. This at least made dog owners aware that there is some risk in the area.
Orange paper laminated with clear plastic to make it waterproof. I would make 4 signs out of a 8x11 sheet of paper if you want to know what size these were.
When I pulled the set, I pulled the sign.View attachment 169921

Any problems with people messing with your traps?

 

[BrdHntr]

Lurker here, who didn't want to really jump in this social media fray but...this thread pulled me in.

I'll speak for Wyoming, here -

Hunter (with firearm/bow/crossbow): finger is on the trigger and it takes a conscious effort to pull it

Trapper ("trigger" is the trap or snare): the trap or snare "safety" is always off and the device can go off 24/7, indiscriminately and doesn't discern the target

Now, assuming that everything is in season and all regs are being abided -

Hunter: Shoots/Kills a non target animal, farm/hunting dog, livestock, someone's kid, etc., is 100% responsible

Trapper: Trap/Snare catches and/or kills a non target animal, farm/hunting dog, livestock, someone's kid, etc. has absolutely NO responsibility

(side note - depending on timing, a Trapper in Wyoming can go up to 13 days between checking sets)

So....apparently some of you think that the burden of responsibility between Hunters and Trappers is equitable? Hunters are held fully accountable for their actions, yet Trappers can set out Devices designed to injure/kill discriminately, at will? <- This, is a huge reason that trapping has a black eye...the other is the "good" trapper turning a blind eye to the scum bag trapper(s)...they don't police their own ranks very well

Is their middle ground? Yes, NO snares or body-grip traps on dry land, period. High in tree Marten Sets, ok. Underwater Beaver Sets, ok. Modern, humane foot holds, ok. If you think I'm going to hack in my 300 yard + ranging pointing dog (who dons a tracking collar), keep him on a leash during a hunt, while they trapper can randomly spread out cable and steel wherever and whenever on public land, you'll need to think again.

If you catch and injure/kill one of my hunting dogs in a snare or trap, all to catch a mangy $5 coyote, the reg's protect you from the law, but you will have no protection when I proceed to extract a pound of flesh off you. Most hunting dog owners are THIS serious

 

[VikingsGuy]

To that point in time, there was ZERO regulation on 330's. So the trapping community, compromised on regulations regarding 330's to protect, or greatly reduce the chance of unrestrained, unleashed pets running wild on public lands, from getting pinched.

That's not giving anything up?

I don't view safety regulations as giving something up - it's just catching up to latent issues that should have been attended to already. Did drivers "give something up" when seat belts became required? Did heavy drinkers "give something up" when state got serious about enforcing DWI laws?

 

[BuzzH]

Have any examples of a kid being killed by a trap or snare?

Asking for a friend.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Have any examples of a kid being killed by a trap or snare?

Asking for a friend.

Your friend, the straw man.

 

[JM77]

If you catch and injure/kill one of my hunting dogs in a snare or trap, all to catch a mangy $5 coyote, the reg's protect you from the law, but you will have no protection when I proceed to extract a pound of flesh off you. Most hunting dog owners are THIS serious

Seriously, you remove yourself from any legitimacy in the argument with that
comment.

Also, don't speak "for" Wyoming.

 

[brymoore]

So much wrong with BrdHntr’s post.

I have bird dogs and Chukar hunt. I’ve had dogs caught in footholds, no real issues.

Getting a dog out of a snare isn’t difficult. Dogs take a while to choke vs a cat whose arteries are close to the skin. One quick flip of the snare mechanism and the dog is free. I’m guessing you have a dog tracking device.

Conibears are an issue, especially bigger than 220. Most states make Conibears bigger than 220 to be water sets only. In Idaho, a new law states exactly that plus 220 need to be in a dog resistant box. 160s and lower can be set on land.

I don’t set Conibears or snares on Chukar ridges until the season is over. However, if done correctly I doubt a dog would be caught. Cat sets don’t attract dogs in general. Ive never caught a coyote in a cat set.

Finally, besides creating a legal problem for himself with threats, you’re way off on pelt prices. Coyotes are closer to $120+ and top bobcats at $800. Covid has played with the market but demand is looking to buy pelts.

 

[Dougfirtree]

Pretty easy for me to sympathize with both sides here. In the end, indiscriminate forms of catching critters work pretty well in a world where the human population is very sparse, and the cost of bycatch is relatively low. But they start to become problematic when the human population gets big and dense, along with its appetites and habits. Fishing with gill nets is a great example. It's indiscriminate (largely) and a time-tested way of catching fish. You can do it without causing much trouble in a world where a few people live around a water body that has tons of fish and not a lot else going on. That's why it probably still works in parts of rural Alaska. It becomes more problematic if folks want to do it on the Blackfoot. Too many people living in the area, not enough fish and too many other users who could be negatively impacted, whether it's anglers, kayakers, rafters, swimmers, dog owners, etc. The sad reality is that some forms of trapping may be too indiscriminate to really coexist well with the modern world. I'm not a trapper, but I get the appeal and if I was, I'd be concerned about being too stubborn about changes and losing the whole shabang in the process. I'd be resentful about that, too though. Tough issue.

 

[huronmtns]

Any problems with people messing with your traps?

Not at all. That is why I would place the sign about 200 yards from the set or sets. They would have to do a lot of searching before they could find it. It also gives them time to be mentally prepared prior to trap or catch interaction.

 

[brymoore]

I’d be real hesitant to label my traps. I’d get a bunch of visitors checking out my sets.

I do use one live set in my landscaping. We have bobcat around my house periodically. I’ve never caught one here but I will some day. I’ve had some technical difficulties. One was stealing my bait regularly two years ago. They know where my set is and were doing drive-bys before this season. I start each morning by tapping my closet window to see if the box wiggles. My wife has woken me up before to tell me my cat was outside growling.

I use the live trap because I don’t want to hear my neighbors pet howl if caught in a foothold and I don’t want to get up in the middle of the night to correct the problem. I’ve never caught a pet in it including my dogs who know it’s there but won’t enter the trap.

 

[BuzzH]

Pretty easy for me to sympathize with both sides here. In the end, indiscriminate forms of catching critters work pretty well in a world where the human population is very sparse, and the cost of bycatch is relatively low. But they start to become problematic when the human population gets big and dense, along with its appetites and habits. Fishing with gill nets is a great example. It's indiscriminate (largely) and a time-tested way of catching fish. You can do it without causing much trouble in a world where a few people live around a water body that has tons of fish and not a lot else going on. That's why it probably still works in parts of rural Alaska. It becomes more problematic if folks want to do it on the Blackfoot. Too many people living in the area, not enough fish and too many other users who could be negatively impacted, whether it's anglers, kayakers, rafters, swimmers, dog owners, etc. The sad reality is that some forms of trapping may be too indiscriminate to really coexist well with the modern world. I'm not a trapper, but I get the appeal and if I was, I'd be concerned about being too stubborn about changes and losing the whole shabang in the process. I'd be resentful about that, too though. Tough issue.

It's more than apparent from this thread, trapping has no future...I'll choose to go down swinging.

 

[Outlaw99]

Funny story. I‘m a landowner. Through the middle of a long stretch of my land along the Missouri River is a levy system. That Levy runs right through 100% private land, but has a permanent easement. Because of this easement, there’s kind of a grey area as far as who gets to do what on the levy itself. Anyway, part of my coyote line ran all through these river bottoms. Theres no real attraction for me to need to set anywhere near this levy, so I suppose the closest I ever get is maybe 150 yards off it. I have no issues, history, or dealings with our DNR; I’ve always just legally done my own thing. So one day I get a call, it’s from a warden. He explains to me some lady is walking her dog down the levy and it managed to get caught in one of my traps. She was upset and called him to deal with the situation. He arrived, and after helping remove her from the trap, which she caught herself tangled up in releasing her dog, he addressed her. She wanted to press charges against the person who set the trap. Keep in mind, I wasn’t there to even tell my side of the story. Next, he asked her why her dog wasnt on a leash? Next, he informed her, both she and her dog were trespassing the second they took a step off he levy. He gave her a stern warning and sent her on her way. He called me to tell me why my set had been messed with and reassured me I was completely legal and in the right.

Now I know I’m talking private vs public land; but my point is, even on public, just as it’s the trappers responsibility to ethically set and check their gear, it should be the same for dog owners and everyone else to responsibly manage their ”gear” or dogs. If a trapper can see an area might look like it receives a lot of dommestic traffic, he should probably move on and avoid the area. If a bird hunter has any inking that there might be trapping going on in a area, he should either move on or keep his dogs in check.

What happened to some ownership and responsibility in this world?
”I want to turn my dogs out and chase birds without having to worry about them getting caught in a trap or snare on public ground“...”I don’t care if the trapper has as much legal rights to be there and do his thing as I do!”.....”I want to do my thing and not have bad things happen to me”

This sense of elitism and entitlement is sickening. This whole “let’s over regulate everything and make sure it suits MY agenda cause that’s what makes me feel good” crap is what’s destroying America. There’s good, bad, risk, and reward in all things in life. That’s part of living; but to expect everything to change or be regulated to suit ones personal agenda is absolute BS.

rant over, proceed

 

[BuzzH]

If you catch and injure/kill one of my hunting dogs in a snare or trap, all to catch a mangy $5 coyote, the reg's protect you from the law, but you will have no protection when I proceed to extract a pound of flesh off you. Most hunting dog owners are THIS serious

Laffin'...

 

[BuzzH]

Funny story. I‘m a landowner. Through the middle of a long stretch of my land along the Missouri River is a levy system. That Levy runs right through 100% private land, but has a permanent easement. Because of this easement, there’s kind of a grey area as far as who gets to do what on the levy itself. Anyway, part of my coyote line ran all through these river bottoms. Theres no real attraction for me to need to set anywhere near this levy, so I suppose the closest I ever get is maybe 150 yards off it. I have no issues, history, or dealings with our DNR; I’ve always just legally done my own thing. So one day I get a call, it’s from a warden. He explains to me some lady is walking her dog down the levy and it managed to get caught in one of my traps. She was upset and called him to deal with the situation. He arrived, and after helping remove her from the trap, which she caught herself tangled up in releasing her dog, he addressed her. She wanted to press charges against the person who set the trap. Keep in mind, I wasn’t there to even tell my side of the story. Next, he asked her why her dog wasnt on a leash? Next, he informed her, both she and her dog were trespassing the second they took a step off he levy. He gave her a stern warning and sent her on her way. He called me to tell me why my set had been messed with and reassured me I was completely legal and in the right.

Now I know I’m talking private vs public land; but my point is, even on public, just as it’s the trappers responsibility to ethically set and check their gear, it should be the same for dog owners and everyone else to responsibly manage their ”gear” or dogs. If a trapper can see an area might look like it receives a lot of dommestic traffic, he should probably move on and avoid the area. If a bird hunter has any inking that there might be trapping going on in a area, he should either move on or keep his dogs in check.

What happened to some ownership and responsibility in this world?
”I want to turn my dogs out and chase birds without having to worry about them getting caught in a trap or snare on public ground“...”I don’t care if the trapper has as much legal rights to be there and do his thing as I do!”.....”I want to do my thing and not have bad things happen to me”

This sense of elitism and entitlement is sickening. This whole “let’s over regulate everything and make sure it suits MY agenda cause that’s what makes me feel good” crap is what’s destroying America. There’s good, bad, risk, and reward in all things in life. That’s part of living; but to expect everything to change or be regulated to suit ones personal agenda is absolute BS.

rant over, proceed

100%, you cant compromise, reason, or provide enough facts with emotion driven non-sense...and you cant compromise to the point of regulating yourself out of a recreational activity.

But, that's exactly what's being expected from one side of this discussion.

 

[Mallardsx2]

That's awesome for otter and beaver, I recall only a handful of times when I set a 330 for those species above water...when was the last time you saw a bobcat swim through a 330? Fisher?...and when I trapped Montana wolverine?

Pretty tough to catch those critters with a 330 half or fully submerged in water, at least in my experience.

Like I said, I'm not anti-trapping. I am 100% pro trapping. I just think there are certain tools that should be used in certain places. Thankfully, most states have common sense laws regarding this.

If you cant catch those animals you listed above with a leg-hold trap then you arnt much of a trapper. Bobcats and fishers have got to be the easiest animals in the world to catch in a leg-hold....been there done that. lol

Cant speak for wolverines though.....but I hear they arnt trap shy and are very easy to catch if you know where to find them.

Anything larger than a 110 should not be used on bare ground and there is absolutely no reason to use a 330 on bare ground. In my opinion they just kill too indiscriminately.

 

[BuzzH]

Like I said, I'm not anti-trapping. I am 100% pro trapping. I just think there are certain tools that should be used in certain places. Thankfully, most states have common sense laws regarding this.

If you cant catch those animals you listed above with a leg-hold trap then you arnt much of a trapper. Bobcats and fishers have got to be the easiest animals in the world to catch in a leg-hold....been there done that. lol

Cant speak for wolverines though.....but I hear they arnt trap shy and are very easy to catch if you know where to find them.

Anything larger than a 110 should not be used on bare ground and there is absolutely no reason to use a 330 on bare ground. In my opinion they just kill too indiscriminately.

I know they're easy to catch in a leghold.

They're also easy to catch in a 220 or 330.

Also, much like I don't care for shooting an elk in the ass and having to shoot it 5 times while it covers a mile or two of country, I feel the same way about trapping.

Let you in on something, I try to kill animals as humanely and quickly as possible and dont care a whole lot for the actual killing, whether, from traps or bullets.

With 48-72 hour checks, I don't really care for the idea of animals being stuck in a leghold for a few hours, or even a couple days, when I can make a set that kills them in seconds or minutes. Yes, I realize that they aren't in pain, and I've had bobcats sitting in a cubby stuck in a leghold, just like its no big deal. Full belly from eating a beaver leg and even out of the elements. But, I don't think the last thing they need to see before they make their exit is me...shooting them in the head with a .22. If I have a choice, I'd rather they poke their head in a 330 and lights out.

Yes, I do think I'm a pretty good trapper that gives more than a casual thought to what I'm doing, in particular giving more than a casual chit about the animals I'm trapping or hunting.

Maybe someday I'll be as good as you...

 

[Shangobango]

Like I said, I'm not anti-trapping. I am 100% pro trapping. I just think there are certain tools that should be used in certain places. Thankfully, most states have common sense laws regarding this.

If you cant catch those animals you listed above with a leg-hold trap then you arnt much of a trapper. Bobcats and fishers have got to be the easiest animals in the world to catch in a leg-hold....been there done that. lol

Cant speak for wolverines though.....but I hear they arnt trap shy and are very easy to catch if you know where to find them.

Anything larger than a 110 should not be used on bare ground and there is absolutely no reason to use a 330 on bare ground. In my opinion they just kill too indiscriminately.

We will have to disagree on this.

I have probably well into the tens of thousands of trap nights with bare ground bodygrips and have never caught a domestic animal of any sort.

It is all in where and how you make your sets.

BTW to prevent any confusion for other readers a trap night equal one trap that is set for one night. So if I have 10 traps set for one night that is 10 trap nights.

I can legally set a 330 on the ground here but why an the hell would I want to? Of all the trappers I know down here I don’t know anyone who has.

If a trapper can’t keep Fido out of a 220 that is an education problem not a trap problem.

 

[Irrelevant]

Well you've squeezed it out of me. I came to this thread pretty sympathetic to trapping, but the tone of the trappers or trappers representatives here have definitely shifted my stance away from supporting this use of public land.

Not sure why you'd want to be your own worst enemy, but to each their own. Good luck.

I will be reviewing again how to release my dog from sets and will try to remember to pack along a leatherman.