Gun thread for Hyphen

[std7mag]

@Hyphen - Don't make me regret this

I regret this!!
I didn't get halfway through reading their post.

 

[ImBillT]

If you want to reduce recoil, a 280AI with 175gr bullets is the wrong direction from a 30-06 with 168gr bullets. I personally think that 7mm cartridges should be shooting at least 168gr bullets, otherwise you might as well just shoot a 6.5mm cartridge. That’s not to say that if you own a 7mm that you shouldn’t shoot 140s. I’m just saying that if you’re picking a cartridge, I would pick a 6.5mm if I was not going to shoot at least a 168gr bullet.

If you go 6.5mm, the 6.5PRC, 6.5CM and 6.5-284Norma are probably the three best supported options.

If you go 280AI, I don’t think you’ll actually need to go tighter than a 1-9” twist unless you plan to shoot heavy monolithic bullets.

I haven’t priced it in a while, but I would think that fitting a blank should cost substantially less that $500. It will always be my preferred option over a prefit.

There are Redding 280AI dies on eBay right now for $90.

280AI brass is out there, BUT if you want long brass life, forming it from Lapua 30-06 would be my top pick. I formed mine from RWS 7x64. To form from 30-06, you may have to use a 7x64 full length die that is PROPERLY SETUP FOR CORRECT HEADSPACE IN YOUR RIFLE. Necking down with a 40 degree shoulder(280AI die) sometimes works fine, but sometimes does not. If necking down from .30cal, you’ll need to anneal your necks to get good brass life. You can form from 280Rem brass with no trouble at all and use your 280AI die.

Christensen and Stiller 700 clones can be purchased with bottom metal, mag box and triggers for around $850-$950. They’re a big step up from a factory Remington in every way including the trigger.

 

[ImBillT]

I would not get an AI anything. Easier to get a rifle in a standard cartridge that will handle what you want. Wait, depending on the shooter, most cartridge's will handle pretty much anything. I think choosing the cartridge is merely a glitch in the shooter's brain. Like what is really better, a 280 or a 30-06? answer depends on the guy doing the shooting. I don't think getting something ammo is hard to fine is the thing to do unless you are a reloader. I have only ever owned one wildcat cartridge, still have it today. Rem 700 in 6.5x06. To be honest there's not much I can do with it that I can't do with my 6.5x55, a 260, a 7mm-08 a 308 ect, it'd advantage is all in my mind. I thing if I were to be honest, the thing to look for in a new cartridge is what loads you can come up with and shoot ability of the rifle. 243 is a lot easier on the shoulder than any 30-06, I have both! Another thing to consider with a new rifle is of course, availability of ammo. Now for reloaders that wouldn't be a problem unless, you forgot your ammo at home of lost it somehow along the way! maybe you simply brought the wrong box. Note, I can't find 6.5x06 ammo commercially in any store!

I actually did bring the wrong ammo one time. Went to a shooting preserve for birds and took along my 28ga, my Stormy, a Red Setter. Favorite bird vest, actually my only bird vest and a full box of 410 ammo! Somehow that just didn't work well!

I think the most important part of getting a new gun is deciding on the gun itself, not the cartridge.

The 280AI is a SAAMI standardized cartridge. Redding now sells dies for it in their most basic group, while the 280Rem is in one of their more obscure groups. Factory rifles, ammo, and already formed brass are all widely available.

Other AI cartridges are definitely best suited to those who are interested in the hassle.

 

[Farmerj]

Had an easier time finding supplies for .260 Remington and .280 Remington lately it seems. Including dies. Got both sets for $50 each.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I didn't read much of this thread but based on the original post I have a few comments.

1. I took interest in your comments about the grip. I feel this is something the hunting community greatly overlooks in making a rifle easier to shoot. So many folks look at traditional rifle stocks that are terrible for actually pulling a trigger but like "how they point" or think a vertical grip is "tactical" or "for prone". Pointing a rifle aint the hard part in hitting your target. Getting it steady and square to manage recoil and making a straight back 90 degree trigger pull without disrupting the POA is where the primary challenge lies. A proper grip makes this much easier. /rant. If you're a function over looks guy, build yourself a custom grip. I linked a good article on this but i'd look into using moldable plastic beads instead of clay or whatever else he used, way easier. Add this grip onto the vertical grip piece of a factory tikka stock and get it rebarreled as you see fit. https://www.snipershide.com/precisi...tine-driving-you-mad-get-a-grip-or-build-one/
2. A 280AI or 7 SAUM (great cartridges) are not going to have less recoil than an 06. They are both bigger cases than an 06 and if you're shooting heavier bullets they'll pack a decent punch. That said, my SAUM recoil is quite nice with 145 CEB lazers and a smaller charge of 4350 compared to the 180 load with a bigger charge of h1000. A 284 win would be another great option in a tikka action with slightly less recoil and better ballistics than your 06.
3. Tikka > Rem > Savage in regards to a starting platform. A tikka action is going to be smoother, more reliable, and come with the best trigger out of the box. I wouldn't even consider savage, no reason to start with something that runs rough and has known extraction/ejection issues from the start.
4. Almost any bolt rifle you can buy today will likely work fine for the majority of someone's hunting needs, but that's not why we comment on these threads.

I'd take that 30/06, rebarrel in 284 win with a reputable builder, build a custom grip on factory stock, bed the action, maybe add bedding to stiffen fore-end, and call it a day! Not the prettiest but you could spend a lot more for less in function.

I might have extra 7 saum dies if you go that way..

 

[ImBillT]

I didn't read much of this thread but based on the original post I have a few comments.

1. I took interest in your comments about the grip. I feel this is something the hunting community greatly overlooks in make a rifle easier to shoot. So many folks look at traditional rifle stocks that are terrible for actually pulling a trigger but like "how they point" or think a vertical grip is "tactical" or "for prone". Pointing a rifle aint the hard part in hitting your target. Getting it square to manage recoil and making a straight back 90 degree trigger pull without disrupting the POA is. A proper grip makes this much easier. /rant. If you're a function over looks guy, build yourself a custom grip. I linked a good article on this but i'd look into using moldable plastic beads as much easier way to go about it. Add this grip onto the vertical grip piece of a factory tikka stock and get it rebarreled as you see fit. https://www.snipershide.com/precisi...tine-driving-you-mad-get-a-grip-or-build-one/
2. A 280AI or 7 SAUM (great cartridges) are not going to have less recoil than an 06. They are both bigger cases than an 06 and if you're shooting heavier bullets they'll pack a decent punch. That said, my SAUM recoil is quite nice with 145 CEB lazers and a smaller charge of 4350 compared to the 180 load with a bigger charge of h1000. A 284 win would be another great option in a tikka action with slightly less recoil and better ballistics than your 06.
3. Tikka > Rem > Savage in regards to a starting platform. A tikka action is going to be smoother, more reliable, and come with the best trigger out of the box. I wouldn't even consider savage, no reason to start with something that runs rough and has known extraction/ejection issues from the start.
4. Almost any bolt rifle you can buy today will likely work fine for the majority of someone's hunting needs, but that's not why we comment on these threads.

I'd take that 30/06, rebarrel in 284 win with a reputable builder, build a custom grip on factory stock, bed the action, maybe add bedding to stiffen fore-end, and call it a day! Not the prettiest but you could spend a lot more for less in function.

I might have extra 7 saum dies if you go that way..

X10

Except I would add that a good Remington clone is also an excellent starting point.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

X10

Except I would add that a good Remington clone is also an excellent starting point.

Yep, just a lot tougher to do with the goal of a $2k rifle.

 

[TrumpkinTheDwarf]

1. sell them all
2. buy a tikka in any reasonable caliber
3. buy a crap load of hammer bullets and reload them as fast as you can
4. wave goodbye to your soul, while clinging tightly to that lifeless plastic stock... bonus points for tears of damnation falling at the sight of tiny little cloverleaf groups shot at absurd distances.

Or be cool, and go find an old pre-64 M70 with good walnut, in something manly like 300H&H or 30-06.

 

[Ben Lamb]

My reference to regrets was about the possibility of @Hyphen posting a viagra commercial or ad for a new line of coolers he is starting, as at the time I posted for him he only had 1 post and could not start on his own.

So i've read this whole thread for nothing.

FOR NOTHING!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I haven’t priced it in a while, but I would think that fitting a blank should cost substantially less that $500. It will always be my preferred option over a prefit.

Most of the the barrels I've had spun up in the last handful of years have been $300-350 to chamber and fit to action. Pretty common to spend $450 for chamber, fit to action, crown / thread muzzle.

By the time you pay $330+ for a premium blank + taxes/shipping, ship your rifle, and gunsmith work + return shipping it's pretty easy to be $800+ into a standard non-fluted steel barrel. If a guy isn't going to be changing a number of barrels out I still say it's worth it to send to a smith.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Read a little more of the comments.

Carbon barrels have a single benefit over a steel barrel of the same weight - you can get bigger diameter muzzle threads for a brake or can. I guess people think they look cool too. Steel barrels are better in every other regard. Carbon barrels also might limit stock choices a little.

You should be able to find a reputable smith to chamber a barrel for you in less than 4-6 months. The last 2 i had done each took a month or less.

 

[mtmuley]

Funny how the .06 is always thought of as inadequate. mtmuley

 

[ImBillT]

Most of the the barrels I've had spun up in the last handful of years have been $300-350 to chamber and fit to action. Pretty common to spend $450 for chamber, fit to action, crown / thread muzzle.

By the time you pay $330+ for a premium blank + taxes/shipping, ship your rifle, and gunsmith work + return shipping it's pretty easy to be $800+ into a standard non-fluted steel barrel. If a guy isn't going to be changing a number of barrels out I still say it's worth it to send to a smith.

I guess it’s time to get into gunsmithing.

$950 for a 700 clone
$800 for custom barrel plus smithing
$250 remaining for a stock.
Sales tax and ffl fees not accounted for.

You have to use the factory Tikka stock to be cheaper, but it wouldn’t be a lot cheaper. Buying a 7-08 and rechambering the the barrel to 280AI would save a lot of money, and a Tikka barrel is a darn good barrel. The main issue would be whether or not you’d be happy with the twist.

Could you use a 700 clone and a custom blank and stay under $2k while paying full retail for everything and including sales tax and shipping on the barrel(most of the other stuff will ship free, but you will pay $25-$60 for FFL transfer). Maybe if you bought a cheap stock but probably not. Could you if you waited for a sale or two(and maybe a used stock) and got your barrel work for a little under $450? Almost certainly. Of course I’m assuming the scope and mounting system isn’t part of the $2k.

When did Nosler M48s get so expensive? Frankly that would have been a fantastic off the shelf 280AI right in the $2k range.

When did CZ limit their centerfire offerings so much? They used to have some amazing rifles right around $2.5k, and some equally amazing rifles in the $1k range.

Yes a Tikka is better than a factory $700, but you can get into a stainless 700 action with bottom metal, magwell, and an acceptable trigger for around $500 after you sell the stock and barrel.

Last fall I bought a black oxide SPS 700 for $348 after sales tax and after selling the barrel, stock, and scope I was only into the action and trigger for about $245. It shoots good enough. I used a stainless takeoff that I got for free, a used HS stock, a PT&G detachable mag setup and Accurate Mag, and don’t have to pay for machine work, so I was only into it for $595(not including the scope and mounting system or the reamer that I paid $60 for).

If I had to pay $450 for machine work I would probably not use anything but Krieger blanks straight from Krieger, but since I don’t, I will gladly try factory takeoffs, used custom barrels, and blanks of various brands at discounts on the secondary market. About all custom barrel makers have won matches, and I’ve shot Kriegers, Bartleins, Shilens, Harts, and Liljas and had good results with all, but if I had to pay $450 and wait in a long line before I got my barrel back, I’d buy a Krieger every time. It’s just where my confidence lies. I have a soft spot in my heart for Hart too though.

 

[nhenry]

Carbon barrels have a single benefit over a steel barrel of the same weight - you can get bigger diameter muzzle threads for a brake or can. I guess people think they look cool too. Steel barrels are better in every other regard. Carbon barrels also might limit stock choices a little.

After now owning a carbon fiber barrel and having a range session, it's got more advantages than just the muzzle diameter for threading. Mine is lighter than my old sporter barrel (essentially a Bartlein 2b contour) by 1/4 lb, is thicker (thus more rigid), and doesn't walk shots around as it gets hot. Oh, and it doesn't stay hot for as long.

Bias against them doesn't get us anywhere. Both steel and carbon are good options.

 

[nhenry]

When did Nosler M48s get so expensive?

When Nosler realized they could get away with it

 

[Wind Gypsy]

After now owning a carbon fiber barrel and having a range session, it's got more advantages than just the muzzle diameter for threading. Mine is lighter than my old sporter barrel (essentially a Bartlein 2b contour) by 1/4 lb, is thicker (thus more rigid), and doesn't walk shots around as it gets hot. Oh, and it doesn't stay hot for as long.

Bias against them doesn't get us anywhere. Both steel and carbon are good options.

No Bias. I have a couple, one Bartlien, one HCA. I just don't believe the benefits people attribute to carbon wrapping exist or are really a benefit. If i need a light barrel in the future that will support 5/8" muzzle threads and don't have the time to wait for a custom contoured steel blank tapered for threads on the muzzle, i'd pick up another carbon barrel without second thought.

Thicker doesn't = more rigid. A standard steel barrel when compared to a similar weighing carbon barrel showed less deflection when Alex wheeler and others tested it. So a carbon barrel is likely actually less stiff than a steel barrel of the same weight.

Carbon barrels in general cool faster but the bores (the part that matters and impacts barrel life) also heat up faster than a steel barrel because they have less steel to act as a heat sink. A thin steel barrel also cools faster and heats up faster than a heavy steel barrel. The heat sink attributes of a heavier steel barrel are generally thought as a positive in shot strings. For hunting applications especially, the rate of heating up is of more concern than cooling down because you aren't going to have a bunch of shot strings throughout the day. To the contrary, the fact that they cool off faster comes with additional issues such as mirage from that heat dissipating.

My understanding of walking shots with barrel heating up is typically caused by a barrel that isn't adequately stress relieved. Wrapping a thin steel barrel liner in carbon is one more thing that could possibly induce stress in the barrel. A nicely done barrel of either construction will avoid walking.

I've also heard from reputable gunsmiths that they just have a higher rate of duds when chambering carbon barrels, but still a small percentage overall. If you look hard enough, you'll find reports of proof carbon barrels being far from straight. Most of em still shoot well.

 

[BrentD]

My understanding of walking shots with barrel heating up is typically caused by a barrel that isn't adequately stress relieved. Wrapping a thin steel barrel liner in carbon is one more thing that could possibly induce stress in the barrel. A nicely done barrel of either construction will avoid walking.

More often these days, it is that the barrel has been improperly mounted. If the breech face is not square to the threads, the barrel will walk on every shot. I had a target rifle like this. It would finally quit walking when it hit its new equilibrial temperature for the rate that I was firing, but by then, the relay was over.

 

[nhenry]

More often these days, it is that the barrel has been improperly mounted. If the breech face is not square to the threads, the barrel will walk on every shot. I had a target rifle like this. It would finally quit walking when it hit its new equilibrial temperature for the rate that I was firing, but by then, the relay was over.

Maybe I have my terms mixed up. When I said that I meant that my carbon barrel doesn't widen groups with more heat.

 

[ImBillT]

Thicker doesn't = more rigid. A standard steel barrel when compared to a similar weighing carbon barrel showed less deflection when Alex wheeler and others tested it. So a carbon barrel is likely actually less stiff than a steel barrel of the same weight.

My understanding of walking shots with barrel heating up is typically caused by a barrel that isn't adequately stress relieved. Wrapping a thin steel barrel liner in carbon is one more thing that could possibly induce stress in the barrel. A nicely done barrel of either construction will avoid walking.

If a same weight carbon wrapped barrel isn’t stiffer than the plain steel barrel then they’re doing something wrong. They may well be.

At the local BR club, the benchrest shooter and gunsmith who does most of the chambering for local competitors who do not chamber their own barrels says that he will not build a hunting rifle for himself that does not have at least a No 5 contour because he just plain cannot get No 4 or lighter contours to consistently shoot tiny groups for reasonable length shot strings. Take that for what you will.

 

[mtmuley]

If a same weight carbon wrapped barrel isn’t stiffer than the plain steel barrel then they’re doing something wrong. They may well be.

How so? mtmuley