Great article on Utah's corruption & theft of license dollars to the tune of $12 million

[FlatlanderAZ]

As a Utahn with no allegiance to any religion, I can assure you the author's repeated attempts at implicating a religion into this issue are extraneous and unwarranted.

Further, the author's attempts will cause many in Utah to disregard the actual substance of the article and thus only work to hinder what the author attempted to accomplish... to affect change in the State.

Yeah, as a former Utahn with a strong allegiance to the states predominant faith, I have to note that it appears the author is trying to draw attention to the connection / relationship between Peay and Benson.

Yes, there are those who will choose to be offended by this and tune out. But regardless of faith, political affiliation or any other commonality, we as sportsmen must police our own.

Now there are those who might argue that we must fight fire with fire. The anti’s have weaponized the ESA and this is one group that is Opposing those efforts. In 2010 we were all pretty happy to see Utah taking a stand against the feds and the wolf propaganda.

But somewhere we have to open our eyes and stop letting corrupt officials use fear of wolves or grizzlies or anti’s to bamboozal millions of tax payer dollars.

And don’t even get me started on the waste of wildlife resources enacted through Peay and SFW’s tag swindling program and expo. We’ve had some hard fights with them here in AZ. And I fear we haven’t seen the last of it.

 

[jryoung]

In 2010 we were all pretty happy to see Utah taking a stand against the feds and the wolf propaganda.

Not sure who was happy when BGF tried to scuttle the Simpson-Tester rider in 2011 and they were called on their bullshit.

NRA, Safari Club criticize Utah hunting groups over alleged misrepresentation

Three of the most powerful pro-hunting organizations in the country fired some sharp criticism

archive.sltrib.com

 

[grizzly_]

As a Utahn with no allegiance to any religion, I can assure you the author's repeated attempts at implicating a religion into this issue are extraneous and unwarranted.

Further, the author's attempts will cause many in Utah to disregard the actual substance of the article and thus only work to hinder what the author attempted to accomplish... to affect change in the State.

Not to quote myself, but I posted the article link on MM and got this reply...

I am still trying to figure out what is meant by.
I quote the quote.
"Benson lives about a four minute drive past the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from Pays house in Bountiful."
The writers of this article really wanted to make a point of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I supposed it's the Mormons fault.

Anybody that thinks any specific religion has anything to do with this is ignorant or an idiot. That connection by the author was unwarranted, baseless in fact, and severely detracts from the purpose of the piece.

 

[44hunter45]

Not to quote myself, but I posted the article link on MM and got this reply...

I am still trying to figure out what is meant by.
I quote the quote.
"Benson lives about a four minute drive past the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from Pays house in Bountiful."
The writers of this article really wanted to make a point of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I supposed it's the Mormons fault.

Anybody that thinks any specific religion has anything to do with this is ignorant or an idiot. That connection by the author was unwarranted, baseless in fact, and severely detracts from the purpose of the piece.

For someone who says they are not religiously affiliated, you sure have a lot of emotion invested.

You actually did quote yourself. You began in your first post with argument from authority, now its become argument by repeated assertion with a seamless transition into Ad Hominem attacks on the author.

At this point, it seems your waving the religion flag is a mis-direct away from something that really stinks in Utah. "Nothing to see here, just another LDS bashing article". Actually there is something to see.

Gross miss-handling of public funds, apparently shady bidding practices, and a Game Agency putting policy lobbying above wildlife management are the real issues here.

I want to know if Utah DWR paying lobbyists and consultants to affect government policy violates the sideboards included in the P-R Act.

 

[grizzly_]

For someone who says they are not religiously affiliated, you sure have a lot of emotion invested.

You actually did quote yourself. You began in your first post with argument from authority, now its become argument by repeated assertion with a seamless transition into Ad Hominem attacks on the author.

At this point, it seems your waving the religion flag is a mis-direct away from something that really stinks in Utah. "Nothing to see here, just another LDS bashing article". Actually there is something to see.

Gross miss-handling of public funds, apparently shady bidding practices, and a Game Agency putting policy lobbying above wildlife management are the real issues here.

I want to know if Utah DWR paying lobbyists and consultants to affect government policy violates the sideboards included in the P-R Act.

Your reading comprehension, application, and critical thinking suffers greatly. Clearly I quoted myself... why do you think I wrote, "Not to quote myself" other than to post a perfect example of my critique being proven correct? And it since you clearly won't understand it, that was a rhetorical question.

If you want to discuss PR violations, which I think are inapplicable in this case, go for it. Heck, sue and I'll support it. But to say this is some religious cabal is as ridiculous as connecting any two people of a similar faith by accusing that faith of being the common denominator in their business or political dealings. Imagine the author writing that about Muslims with a paragraph about their homes being near a mosque. And, in Utah, being near an LDS church is ubiquitous and even less meaningful and relevant.

I'll say it again, that connection by the author was warrantless, unhelpful, and false.

PS. I have no emotion in this, just the critique that the author's religious correlation would backfire on the actual issue and become counterproductive. And you have no right to assign myself, or any individual, especially based on as little information as you have, their religious dedication.

Wise up.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@grizzly_ It's a religion yes, but the Church of Latter Day Saints is also a massive (perhaps one of the largest in the world) privately owned for profit businesses, which owns more than 1 million acres of land, and does billions of dollars worth of business every year.

I'm with you on the religion angle... but having the vast majority of a state politicians psuedo working on the behalf of a large private company is kinda weird. In this context I think it would be worth noting if all the key players were members of the same church, mosque, or synagogue and if that religious institution owned a ton of land and ran a lot of businesses.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Your reading comprehension, application, and critical thinking suffers greatly. Clearly I quoted myself... why do you think I wrote, "Not to quote myself" other than to post a perfect example of my critique being proven correct? And it since you clearly won't understand it, that was a rhetorical question.

If you want to discuss PR violations, which I think are inapplicable in this case, go for it. Heck, sue and I'll support it. But to say this is some religious cabal is as ridiculous as connecting any two people of a similar faith by accusing that faith of being the common denominator in their business or political dealings. Imagine the author writing that about Muslims with a paragraph about their homes being near a mosque. And, in Utah, being near an LDS church is ubiquitous and even less meaningful and relevant.

I'll say it again, that connection by the author was warrantless, unhelpful, and false.

PS. I have no emotion in this, just the critique that the author's religious correlation would backfire on the actual issue and become counterproductive. And you have no right to assign myself, or any individual, especially based on as little information as you have, their religious dedication.

Wise up.

I appreciate your perspective. I've worked with LDS folks and lived next to them my whole life & think highly of them as friends, colleagues & neighbors. Like any religion, there are bad apples throughout the church, but I've been amazed at the generosity & kindness my LDS friends show to all.

I didn't take that away from the article so much as saying that there is a tight bond between Peay & Benson (who used to work for Mike Lee, iirc) and she used the church as a focal point for location & to highlight the familiarity. I think it would be a fair point on any close relationship regardless of which religious institution they belonged too.

 

[44hunter45]

I'm going to make the conscious decision that @Grizzly and I are not communicating. I think we may have more in common in this than either of us thinks. I'm open to a DM discussion about that rather than derail this any further. Or I'm happy to honerstly say I'm sorry if what I wrote gave offense and move on.

What I am trying to do, poorly it seems, is move this thread back to discussing the actual facts of this case, rather than the religion practiced by the players.

 

[grizzly_]

I didn't take that away from the article so much as saying that there is a tight bond between Peay & Benson (who used to work for Mike Lee, iirc) and she used the church as a focal point for location & to highlight the familiarity. I think it would be a fair point on any close relationship regardless of which religious institution they belonged too.

Okay, we'll just have to disagree on that being a fair point. I can't imagine any discussion regarding two individuals that involves the question, "Isn't it true that you two are the same religion?" without some contextual reason to believe religion was applicable to the conversation.

Jeff Flake, Mitt Romney, Mike Lee, and Harry Reid are all practicing LDS Members. It seems to me that it's fair to say their religion hasn't demanded specific beliefs or leanings regarding virtually any political or philosophical persuasions. I don't think it applies to BGF/SFW either.

 

[Trial153]

I don't think the LDS detracts at all from the point of the article. considering how intertwined LDS in Utah politics it a salient point.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Okay, we'll just have to disagree on that being a fair point. I can't imagine any discussion regarding two individuals that involves the question, "Isn't it true that you two are the same religion?" without some contextual reason to believe religion was applicable to the conversation.

Jeff Flake, Mitt Romney, Mike Lee, and Harry Reid are all practicing LDS Members. It seems to me that it's fair to say their religion hasn't demanded specific beliefs or leanings regarding virtually any political or philosophical persuasions. I don't think it applies to BGF/SFW either.

You are misconstruing religion: a particular system of faith and worship and Church: organization of religions followers.

It's not that these individuals have similar religions beliefs it's that they all belong to the same business partnership.

 

[grizzly_]

I don't think the LDS detracts at all from the point of the article. considering how intertwined LDS in Utah politics it a salient point.

I bet you they all drink Coke and eat hamburgers too. That doesn't mean one begets another. The fact that so many in Utah are the same religion does nothing to prove they're correlated, just that if you do business in Utah you're likely dealing with somebody of that religion. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[grizzly_]

You are misconstruing religion: a particular system of faith and worship and Church: organization of religions followers.

It's not that these individuals have similar religions beliefs it's that they all belong to the same business partnership.

That's your second post going into the business dealings of a religion. You can have that conversation if you'd like, but it won't be with me. They don't get any of my money so I have no right to an opinion of how it's gained or spent.

 

[Trial153]

You would almost be remise not to bring up this connection

I bet you they all drink Coke and eat hamburgers too. That doesn't mean one begets another. The fact that so many in Utah are the same religion does nothing to prove they're correlated, just that if you do business in Utah you're likely dealing with somebody of that religion. Nothing more, nothing less.

With this comment your either joking, Naïve beyond belief or willfully ignorant.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

That's your second post going into the business dealings of a religion. You can have that conversation if you'd like, but it won't be with me. They don't get any of my money so I have no right to an opinion of how it's gained or spent.

Again in this context not about religion.

Honestly the references are pretty fleeting and are just there to show the individuals various ties.

Utah's legislators have been on the forefront of the privatization of public land movement, all of the key players belong to the same church (not religion, church) and that specific church owns 36% of the private land in Utah.

 

[cedahm]

all of the key players belong to the same church (not religion, church) and that specific church owns 36% of the private land in Utah.

This is the key point - I don't disagree that the reporter went a little heavy on emotional/subjective descriptors to make the point - but it's a valid point for the bolded reason above.

Think of it this way - in UT specifically - when the discussion of 'PLT' comes up - the recipient of a transfer in Utah would likely be the LDS church - or at a minimum, the church business has outsized influence on public land politics and decisions in that state and would 100% influence any change in land management within Utah's borders, which is why their involvement matters in context of Utah's public lands.

If we had a couple of idiots like Peay and Benson operating a similar scheme in CO - the LDS business wouldn't be relevant because the church only owns a small handful of land in CO. It is relevant in Utah, the same way that the Roman Catholic church or the United Kingdom royal family is relevant in places where they are a massive landowner and a massive influencer of public policy.

 

[MTGomer]

Let’s not kid ourselves here with a bunch of pandering, PC bs.

 

[Deleted member 20812]

People are free to believe whatever they want, but two rather fleeting references to LDS in the article do not detract, IMO from the greater underlying corruption and financial gain a select few are reaping off their campaigns of misinformation. If they do serve to distract someone from the point of the article, they were likely looking for an excuse to ignore reality.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This is the key point - I don't disagree that the reporter went a little heavy on emotional/subjective descriptors to make the point - but it's a valid point for the bolded reason above.

Think of it this way - in UT specifically - when the discussion of 'PLT' comes up - the recipient of a transfer in Utah would likely be the LDS church - or at a minimum, the church business has outsized influence on public land politics and decisions in that state and would 100% influence any change in land management within Utah's borders, which is why their involvement matters in context of Utah's public lands.

If we had a couple of idiots like Peay and Benson operating a similar scheme in CO - the LDS business wouldn't be relevant because the church only owns a small handful of land in CO. It is relevant in Utah, the same way that the Roman Catholic church or the United Kingdom royal family is relevant in places where they are a massive landowner and a massive influencer of public policy.

The LDS is also the largest private landowner in Florida, one of the largest in Nebraska, and has significant holdings in CO, AZ, CA, as well as a number of other states.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

If they do serve to distract someone from the point of the article, they were likely looking for an excuse to ignore reality.

I think you are correct and unfortunately she gave them that very excuse. I would assume her overarching reason for writing the article was to get the general UT population to see what they have turned a blind-eye towards. They are the ones that can stop this, not a guy from Wyo or someone from the basalt rocks. When she inserted those two references I fear she pushed away potential supporters of change in UT.