Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[Forkyfinder]

Hunt talkers,

What are your thoughts on grazing fees? In doing research after a frustrating year in the breaks - seeing elk concentrated on ungrazed private really made me question some things.

Heres some thoughts:

1. Grazing fees are cheaper than 1980. Yes. That is right - it is cheaper today than in the ealry 80s to have cattle on public land. $2.31 per cow calf pair per month in 1980, $1.35 in 2024.
2. Montana and wyoming are number 7 and 14 respectively in terms of beef production - this begs the question - is this subsidy really worth it in critical areas? None of the other top 15 states have didly for public land.
3. Ovegrazing has been an a
anecdotal observation in the breaks. I get it. Droughts happen - however - why does the public land and wild life have to suffer first? If it is cheaper to use a public resource than your own - it seems problematic.
4. Cattle grazing can be very complementary and/or beneficial to elk grazing in certain areas and topogralhy - however they eat a lot of the same food.

There are members with regulation experience, ranchers, and wildlife ecology specialisits. All with likely more informed opinions than mine - and im asking the questions to spark the discussion.

How do we get more elk on the mountain and a more even trade on the food that wildlife eat? Or - am i truly missing something?

P.s. an ugly beneficial truth of outfitting - it makes landowners with a lot of critical winter range habitat more tolerant to wildlife and especially elk.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

This is a very interesting topic. I have seen many similar scenarios, the public gets grazed all summer, then right before hunting season the rancher takes his cows back to his property. Concurrently, a large portion of the forage has been grazed so the elk transition to private lands. I have a hard time believing ranchers are not aware of this phenomenon, they probably are fans of it as many of them outfit. They leave their property ungrazed until hunting season when they can profit off the wildlife being there.

Secondly, grazing fees need to go way up. One huge problem is the cattle are a major vector for noxious weed transfer. I have seen countless places where cattle concentrate their grazing then a year or two later the area is thick with houndstouge, knapweed or some other invasive weed. How often do the ranchers go into the backcountry where their cows were causing weed infestation and treat them? The answer is almost never.

Lastly I believe that anyone who has a grazing lease on any public land that is landlocked should have to allow the public access to that piece of land as long as it touches deeded land they own.

 

[Forkyfinder]

This is a very interesting topic. I have seen many similar scenarios, the public gets grazed all summer, then right before hunting season the rancher takes his cows back to his property. Concurrently, a large portion of the forage has been grazed so the elk transition to private lands. I have a hard time believing ranchers are not aware of this phenomenon, they probably are fans of it as many of them outfit. They leave their property ungrazed until hunting season when they can profit off the wildlife being there.

Secondly, grazing fees need to go way up. One huge problem is the cattle are a major vector for noxious weed transfer. I have seen countless places where cattle concentrate their grazing then a year or two later the area is thick with houndstouge, knapweed or some other invasive weed. How often do the ranchers go into the backcountry where their cows were causing weed infestation and treat them? The answer is almost never.

Lastly I believe that anyone who has a grazing lease on any public land that is landlocked should have to allow the public access to that piece of land as long as it touches deeded land they own.

Yup.

Laugh reacts though!

 

[cgasner1]

So this year I helped a rancher load his cattle into semis to be sold on the opening day of rifle season. A guy can learn a lot from these ranchers about the country and why things are happening when they are and how they are. I’d recommend maybe trying to be friendly with one you might learn a thing or two from their perspective. I’ve killed a bull or two….. Like one every year for the last 15 years. I have learned a lot about elk hunting and just why they move thru the country he ranches. Also if you think the only reason elk in the breaks are on private is from over grazing this is gonna be a pointless conversation.

 

[DFS]

Yup.

Laugh reacts though!

You are definitely right you’ve already educated me.

 

[Forkyfinder]

So this year I helped a rancher load his cattle into semis to be sold on the opening day of rifle season. A guy can learn a lot from these ranchers about the country and why things are happening when they are and how they are. I’d recommend maybe trying to be friendly with one you might learn a thing or two from their perspective. I’ve killed a bull or two….. Like one every year for the last 15 years. I have learned a lot about elk hunting and just why they move thru the country he ranches. Also if you think the only reason elk in the breaks are on private is from over grazing this is gonna be a pointless conversation.

Its not the sole reason. Compare the forage on the on the CMR vs adjacent blm vs ranch land. Its not subtle.

View attachment 315709

You are definitely right you’ve already educated me.

Do you think people are immune to noticing critical issues with habitat in the west and the value thats place on public vs private land and grazing?

I was impolite - no doubt. Apologies for that publicly and privately id talk more to you.

If you want to contribute a useful set of counter points to counter mine, id love to be educated on this thread on the topic at hand with real evidence.

 

[kwyeewyk]

Hunt talkers,

What are your thoughts on grazing fees? In doing research after a frustrating year in the breaks - seeing elk concentrated on ungrazed private really made me question some things.

Heres some thoughts:

1. Grazing fees are cheaper than 1980. Yes. That is right - it is cheaper today than in the ealry 80s to have cattle on public land. $2.31 per cow calf pair per month in 1980, $1.35 in 2024.
2. Montana and wyoming are number 7 and 14 respectively in terms of beef production - this begs the question - is this subsidy really worth it in critical areas? None of the other top 15 states have didly for public land.
3. Ovegrazing has been an a
anecdotal observation in the breaks. I get it. Droughts happen - however - why does the public land and wild life have to suffer first? If it is cheaper to use a public resource than your own - it seems problematic.
4. Cattle grazing can be very complementary and/or beneficial to elk grazing in certain areas and topogralhy - however they eat a lot of the same food.

There are members with regulation experience, ranchers, and wildlife ecology specialisits. All with likely more informed opinions than mine - and im asking the questions to spark the discussion.

How do we get more elk on the mountain and a more even trade on the food that wildlife eat? Or - am i truly missing something?

P.s. an ugly beneficial truth of outfitting - it makes landowners with a lot of critical winter range habitat more tolerant to wildlife and especially elk.

You should bring these questions to the next cattlemen's association meeting in your area! There might just be an entire coalition of people who disagree with you and have quite a bit of power in the situation.

I think a lot of people would agree that AUM rates could be raised, and that there could be better management, and more access, etc. There are lots of people from all kinds of backgrounds working on many different efforts to help address some of these issues, and it encompasses way more than just elk, and focusing on elk is selfish as hunters. Elk management has a lot of important factors other than forage availability and competition with cattle, and grazing impacts have a lot of ramifications beyond elk. If it were simple or easy the problem would already be solved. You can make wish lists all day, but wish in one hand and you know the rest.

I think fees are the least of the issue, the government isn't a business. Maintaining and improving land health is the most important thing land managers can do, and cultivating productive partnerships with grazing operators and finding compatibility with other land uses is far more likely to succeed than pricing out small producers or trying to outright shut down grazing.

Comparing arid western states where cattle are ranging public to states where cattle are on highly productive and/or irrigated ground and feed lots is not a good comparison.

I'd be interested to hear about what you're working on to help improve these issues in your area? There are a lot of productive efforts, partnerships and collaborations to improve things to get involved with if you truly want to.

Here's an example of something amazing accomplished by @Oak

Thread 'Sheep Grazing Buyout in Colorado' https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/sheep-grazing-buyout-in-colorado.321978/

 

[Trial153]

Cattle suck. domestic sheep suck. Farming and ranching suck the welfare tit so hard it’s turned inside out.

 

[cgasner1]

Its not the sole reason. Compare the forage on the on the CMR vs adjacent blm vs ranch land. Its not subtle.

Do you think people are immune to noticing critical issues with habitat in the west and the value thats place on public vs private land and grazing?

I was impolite - no doubt. Apologies for that publicly and privately id talk more to you.

If you want to contribute a useful set of counter points to counter mine, id love to be educated on this thread on the topic at hand with real evidence.

Most the ranchers will care more about that land than you and I ever will. Like I said have a conversation with one it becomes really apparent I don’t know my ass from a hole in the ground with a couple I’ve talked to. You’re talking about families that have taken care of those lands for generations. I’m in no way advocating for a private land owner but there is 2 sides to this story.

 

[Salmonchaser]

So a significant number of these leases have been in the same family for 100 years plus or minus. Depends on When the forest service got the regulations going in any particular area. Prior to that it was the local families that would send their 12 year old sons up there with a herd of cows or pigs (use to be a lot of pigs grazing in the Eagle cap) push them up the Minam over the top and down to Cove or Union. Understanding that there are a few ass hole operators just like there are ass hole elk hunters, how the hell do you think the honest operation could keep grazing the same country for a 100 years if they kept over grazing it? Grass doesn’t work that way. In the mean the elk herds have grown. Where do the elk go when the snow comes? The vitriol against most ranchers is misplaced and simply furthers the distrust they have of most hunters and their motives. Yes it’s a good deal per AUM and regulations, noxious weed control could be improved perhaps but it’s easier to get something done if you understand both sides of the argument.

 

[Trial153]

Hunt talkers,

What are your thoughts on grazing fees? In doing research after a frustrating year in the breaks - seeing elk concentrated on ungrazed private really made me question some things.

Heres some thoughts:

1. Grazing fees are cheaper than 1980. Yes. That is right - it is cheaper today than in the ealry 80s to have cattle on public land. $2.31 per cow calf pair per month in 1980, $1.35 in 2024.
2. Montana and wyoming are number 7 and 14 respectively in terms of beef production - this begs the question - is this subsidy really worth it in critical areas? None of the other top 15 states have didly for public land.
3. Ovegrazing has been an a
anecdotal observation in the breaks. I get it. Droughts happen - however - why does the public land and wild life have to suffer first? If it is cheaper to use a public resource than your own - it seems problematic.
4. Cattle grazing can be very complementary and/or beneficial to elk grazing in certain areas and topogralhy - however they eat a lot of the same food.

There are members with regulation experience, ranchers, and wildlife ecology specialisits. All with likely more informed opinions than mine - and im asking the questions to spark the discussion.

How do we get more elk on the mountain and a more even trade on the food that wildlife eat? Or - am i truly missing something?

P.s. an ugly beneficial truth of outfitting - it makes landowners with a lot of critical winter range habitat more tolerant to wildlife and especially elk.

Agree. Wildlife takes a back seats to farming and ranching profits. And the American tax payers get it on both ends. Firstly having less wild animals on the landscape because the resources are being used by ranchers to turn a profit off using public resources. And secondly though subsidies and handouts to farmers and ranchers, more welfare .

 

[rjthehunter]

Agree. Wildlife takes a back seats to farming and ranching profits. And the American tax payers get it on both ends. Firstly having less wild animals on the landscape because the resources are being used by ranchers to turn a profit off using public resources. And secondly though subsidies and handouts to farmers and ranchers, more welfare .

They're profiting off a public resource.

So many people on this site hate "influencers" because they're profiting off a public resource. Then in the same breath, they are okay with ranchers grazing their cattle on public lands...

 

[Trial153]

They're profiting off a public resource.

So many people on this site hate "influencers" because they're profiting off a public resource. Then in the same breath, they are okay with ranchers grazing their cattle on public lands...

Yeah some interesting distinctions are over looked.

I also feel like we will never increase wildlife on these lands as long as cattle and sheep are eating everything.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

There are a few multi generational ranches still out there, however more and more these ranchers are owned by millionaires and billionaires. These “new age” landowners are more often than not buying these ranches as investment/recreation properties. Having cows on the ranch simply helps as a tax write off. Look at the matador cattle company that just sold a couple years ago, I would guess that came with tens of thousands if not a hundred thousand acres plus of grazing leases. Maybe when a ranch sells the AUM lease price could be reassessed to a new price, one that is fair to the resource and public.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

I'd be really curious to hear the ranchers points as well. Instead of criticizing so much. Everyone maybe have a decent-ish conversation and try and see some points of one another. And the gentleman who used to work doing these allotments. Just more people involved who directly have their sides to point out.

We do need to realize beef, chicken, pork is what maintains for the most part.. people outside of the hunting community and even alot inside it. The old slogan beef it's what's for dinner. Is still very valid. So I'd be curious to listen to ranchers as well.

 

[VikingsGuy]

They're profiting off a public resource.

So many people on this site hate "influencers" because they're profiting off a public resource. Then in the same breath, they are okay with ranchers grazing their cattle on public lands...

Trying to make sense of folks’ political positions via some type of coherent logic is sooo 1980s. In ‘24 it is only understood via tribes. Use that lens and see the logic.

 

[Trial153]

Simple solution. Once a grazing lease expires don’t renew it. Do a 15 year pilot study on groups of leases that are vacant and let’s see what the landscape and wildlife looks like at that time.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You should bring these questions to the next cattlemen's association meeting in your area! There might just be an entire coalition of people who disagree with you and have quite a bit of power in the situation.

I think a lot of people would agree that AUM rates could be raised, and that there could be better management, and more access, etc. There are lots of people from all kinds of backgrounds working on many different efforts to help address some of these issues, and it encompasses way more than just elk, and focusing on elk is selfish as hunters. Elk management has a lot of important factors other than forage availability and competition with cattle, and grazing impacts have a lot of ramifications beyond elk. If it were simple or easy the problem would already be solved. You can make wish lists all day, but wish in one hand and you know the rest.

I think fees are the least of the issue, the government isn't a business. Maintaining and improving land health is the most important thing land managers can do, and cultivating productive partnerships with grazing operators and finding compatibility with other land uses is far more likely to succeed than pricing out small producers or trying to outright shut down grazing.

Comparing arid western states where cattle are ranging public to states where cattle are on highly productive and/or irrigated ground and feed lots is not a good comparison.

I'd be interested to hear about what you're working on to help improve these issues in your area? There are a lot of productive efforts, partnerships and collaborations to improve things to get involved with if you truly want to.

Here's an example of something amazing accomplished by @Oak

Thread 'Sheep Grazing Buyout in Colorado' https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/sheep-grazing-buyout-in-colorado.321978/

The government isnt a business - but im sure i know that i can name subsidy on public land that you vehemently disagree with that benefits large and small businesses. There are a variety of examples - but influencers is the easiest one to unite HT. Taking public resources and channeling profits into private hands is an unfortunate american past time.

The idea isnt selfishly "just about hunting" but about wildlife population decline in general. To be clear - im not advocating for this - but if grazing went to 0 suddenly - not much would happen except a marginal price increase in beef price. Dramatic things would happen to a lot of small businesses, communities, and families and I would never be for that.

So a significant number of these leases have been in the same family for 100 years plus or minus. Depends on When the forest service got the regulations going in any particular area. Prior to that it was the local families that would send their 12 year old sons up there with a herd of cows or pigs (use to be a lot of pigs grazing in the Eagle cap) push them up the Minam over the top and down to Cove or Union. Understanding that there are a few ass hole operators just like there are ass hole elk hunters, how the hell do you think the honest operation could keep grazing the same country for a 100 years if they kept over grazing it? Grass doesn’t work that way. In the mean the elk herds have grown. Where do the elk go when the snow comes? The vitriol against most ranchers is misplaced and simply furthers the distrust they have of most hunters and their motives. Yes it’s a good deal per AUM and regulations, noxious weed control could be improved perhaps but it’s easier to get something done if you understand both sides of the argument.

Fair and valid point. I know of good examples and bad. I would venture to say that in most years - a majority do good. The vitrol comes - as they continue to push for lower objectives for wildlife populations.

 

[Trial153]

I think we need to really stop pretending that Farming and Ranching is good for wildlife. It isn’t

 

[Forkyfinder]

Montana Grazing Lease Rates - MSU Extension Land Leasing | Montana State University

Historical and current grazing lease rates for Montana

www.montana.edu

Here are the prices of private grazing. Its about the same price per day as the BLM rate is per month.

There are wildlife ecologists, regulators, and ranchers. Im hoping more of them jump in to expand the conversation. So far - its been little more anectodes and googling (including me).

I think we need to really stop pretending that Farming and Ranching is good for wildlife. It isn’t

It can be complimentary - no doubt. I just fail to understand why we cant acknowledge this isnt fair to the public, resource, or wildlife at some level when it is being exploited and mismanaged.