GG vetos Sheep and Moose Lottery Option

[Flynarrow]

Our Governor GG just vetoed the bill the Legislature passed giving the OPTION of using a lottery instead of high bid to award one moose or bighorn permit. This OPTION at FWP Commission discretion would have allowed people of ordinary means to purchase a lottery ticket(s) of perhaps $20-100 to perhaps win this permit instead of just the rich bidding hundreds of thousands to ensure they got to hunt moose or sheep using this permit .

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/missoulian.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/eedition/c/b9/cb91d032-259a-5c39-9291-ac4c66d4b8e8/682bb4da68a84.magnified.jpg

 

[Carnage2011]

If anyone wanted to know where those conservation orgs stand on the average Joe’s option to obtain a tag like this, they just showed you. With as far as the quality of sheep has fallen in MT, you’d think the Montana WSF would be all about maximizing the dollars instead of pandering to their wealthy donors. For a state that was once the most sought after for sheep it sure has taken a shit lately. Ty’s argument that the commission shouldn’t have that option is bullshit. Hell, people spend oodles of cash on a raffle for the mule deer tag, and it’s barely worth the paper it’s printed on. To act like we couldn’t make as much money with a raffle is asinine. Apparently that doesn’t matter when your big money donors pull the strings. I haven’t seen Ty comment on here in a while so maybe @MTGomer come weigh in since he’s a board member.

We all knew Gianforte was only here to represent his buddies so that comes as no surprise.

 

[Forkyfinder]

 

[Nameless Range]

Rent Seeking. Little else.

 

[cgasner1]

If anyone wanted to know where those conservation orgs stand on the average Joe’s option to obtain a tag like this, they just showed you. With as far as the quality of sheep has fallen in MT, you’d think the Montana WSF would be all about maximizing the dollars instead of pandering to their wealthy donors. For a state that was once the most sought after for sheep it sure has taken a shit lately. Ty’s argument that the commission shouldn’t have that option is bullshit. Hell, people spend oodles of cash on a raffle for the mule deer tag, and it’s barely worth the paper it’s printed on. To act like we couldn’t make as much money with a raffle is asinine. Apparently that doesn’t matter when your big money donors pull the strings. I haven’t seen Ty comment on here in a while so maybe @MTGomer come weigh in since he’s a board member.

We all knew Gianforte was only here to represent his buddies so that comes as no surprise.

I’d be curious how much money could be made from a raffle. My interest is in the resources. If a raffle can’t compete with the money made in an auction then I’d rather just see it go to an auction. Like you said our sheep situation is a sad deal and it’s gonna take money to fix that. Guess I kinda see both sides of this

 

[Forkyfinder]

I’d be curious how much money could be made from a raffle. My interest is in the resources. If a raffle can’t compete with the money made in an auction then I’d rather just see it go to an auction. Like you said our sheep situation is a sad deal and it’s gonna take money to fix that. Guess I kinda see both sides of this

Allowing the commission to choose an option is the best way to ensure maximum funding though. The expirement of a raffle raising more than an auction was proven an initial success - i dont see how there is certainty from some folks it results in less money. Under the bill GG veto'ed - If it were to result in less finance raised - the commission would be free to change to an auction tag.

 

[406dn]

It has long troubled me that any tags were sold at auction. It runs counter to the premise that wildlife belongs equally to the public. Rationalizing it as a crucial fundraiser, is window dressing. It is purely selling a tag to someone not content to swim with the unwashed masses.

The lottery is a better option, both ethically and as a fundraiser. A person of means can purchase many lottery tickets, increasing their odds, but not offering any guarantee. Everyone else can purchase tickets as they want. Even the person buying a single ticket has a small chance of winning the tag.

 

[Forkyfinder]

It comes down to money, for the orgs, more than the sheep. BHA didnt take a dime from that raffle. I wish theyd have got a little more love for that, here on HT especially.

WSF takes a significant chunk of the proceeds of the auction - 10% for "admin" fees. Not sure they feel great about losing 40k+ of revenue for their org.

 

[seeth07]

The expirement of a raffle raising more than an auction was proven an initial success - i dont see how there is certainty from some folks it results in less money. Under the bill GG veto'ed - If it were to result in less finance raised - the commission would be free to change to an auction tag.

Do you have the dollar amount that the super tag for sheep and moose produces for the state?

 

[Nameless Range]

It comes down to money, for the orgs, more than the sheep. BHA didnt take a dime from that raffle. I wish theyd have got a little more love for that, here on HT especially.

WSF takes a significant chunk of the proceeds of the auction - 10% for "admin" fees. Not sure they feel great about losing 40k+ of revenue for their org.

I think it is less about money to WSF, and more about reputation . Many members of many conservation orgs love the big banquets, the networking, the pomp and circumstance associated with an auction. Talk to someone who's been present at one of these auctions, and it's an entertainment event to them - and I am sure it is.

If auctions raise more revenue, then there's a real strong case that auctions should be used. But, I heard this same line of reasoning in opposition to the mule deer tag that BHA raffled, and the naysayers were wrong. So much of how much a raffle can generate is associated with the marketing power of those doing the raffle. WSF has 11,000 members - a quarter of BHA, and not even 5% of the RMEF. WSF running a raffle probably wouldn't bring the big $ in the same way one of their well-to-do members could in one fell swoop. If generating revenue were really the chief measure, there'd probably be a different way of doing things - but I also think the metric of maximizing dollars at the expense of everything else creates heartburn in the beneficiaries of the trust that is Montana's wildlife, and I don't blame us.

That said, to disallow the commission from even being open to it, is simply WSF's fear of competition being exposed and printed in the Montana Code Annotated.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Do you have the dollar amount that the super tag for sheep and moose produces for the state?

Not hard to see. Multiply the existing numbers by 5 bucks. That comes up short to the auction results - but its not a really a truly valid comparision in my mind.

 

[Carnage2011]

I’d be curious how much money could be made from a raffle. My interest is in the resources. If a raffle can’t compete with the money made in an auction then I’d rather just see it go to an auction. Like you said our sheep situation is a sad deal and it’s gonna take money to fix that. Guess I kinda see both sides of this

How do we know that a raffle couldn’t compete with an auction? It’s not like our gov tag is selling for crazy money anymore.

 

[Steve O]

I’d be curious how much money could be made from a raffle. My interest is in the resources. If a raffle can’t compete with the money made in an auction then I’d rather just see it go to an auction. Like you said our sheep situation is a sad deal and it’s gonna take money to fix that. Guess I kinda see both sides of this

I’ve seen the numbers for Idaho. They always have a raffle and an auction tag. When the Hells Canyon Unit 11 tag is in the raffle, it comes within 2/3 of what the auction tag brings, when the Unit 11 tag is NOT in the rafffle it struggles to bring in 1/3 of what the auction tag does.

 

[MTGomer]

nobody will ever see me go to bat in support of auction tags for the sake of auctioning a tag. I do support raising as much money as possible off one tag. If that means an auction, then I support that. If that means a raffle, then I support getting rid of the auction and going to a raffle.

That’s been my stance in Arizona and my frustration with the commission there is they refused to answer how they plan to replace the auction money.

There is more hunting opportunity in Arizona today because of the impact of the money that has been raised by auction tags. Some people might not like that, but that is an undeniable hard fact. I have personally built drinkers with that money and watched helicopters show up the next day to haul water after we found them dry with sheep standing around them and called it in. The money is needed, whether it be from an auction or a raffle or something else. A state with 6+ million people could just face the fact that desert bighorn sheep are a valuable species and money should be spent to conserve them without relying on the tiny fraction of the people that are hunters or want to be hunters, but that’s another topic.

If a raffle would raise more than an auction in MT, that’s what we should do, in my personal opinion.
How much does the current raffle, called the super tag, raise? Could it raise more if it was more than $5 a piece and was better marketed and did not (I believe) require conservation license to purchase it?

Montana faces a lot of challenges when it comes to bighorn sheep and they cannot all be solved with money, unfortunately.

 

[MTGomer]

Montana WSF would be all about maximizing the dollars instead of pandering to their wealthy donors.

Just to clarify, MT WSF is not involved in the sale or the allocation of funds from the Montana bighorn auction tag.

 

[MTGomer]

Reading comments here, Facebook, and elsewhere leaves me with the impression that many hunters don’t know Montana’s “super tag” raffle. I keep seeing people say “if” there was a raffle tag. If you guys don’t know, there IS a raffle tag. I’m not positive, but I believe you need a base hunting or conservation license to buy one, but I’m not sure on that.
They are $5 each and you can buy as many as you want I think.
It allows you to hunt in any unit with a sheep season, during the sheep season.

There’s one for every species, not just sheep.

 

[SAJ-99]

I’d be curious how much money could be made from a raffle. My interest is in the resources. If a raffle can’t compete with the money made in an auction then I’d rather just see it go to an auction. Like you said our sheep situation is a sad deal and it’s gonna take money to fix that. Guess I kinda see both sides of this

Didn't BHA raise a record amount in last year's MD raffle?
And just to point out the obvious flaw in GG's argument, the results of auctions are just an unknown as the results from raffles.

 

[cgasner1]

Didn't BHA raise a record amount in last year's MD raffle?
And just to point out the obvious flaw in GG's argument, the results of auctions are just an unknown as the results from raffles.

They may have but I’d also bet that record for deer money isn’t record for sheep money. Most people are still only going to spend so much on a raffle no matter the species. I find the conversation interesting and don’t have a side to pick other than I’m pro sheep

 

[MTGomer]

Didn't BHA raise a record amount in last year's MD raffle?

They did, but that’s not a real comparison. A montana mule deer is worth $25 raffle ticket. Due to the way deer are managed and the poor quality of deer hunting in the state, an auction wouldn’t raise much. States with good deer hunting raise hundreds of thousands of dollars off of their statewide auctions. More than they do with their sheep tags in many cases.

nonody is chomping at the bit to hunt Montana deer.

 

[Forkyfinder]

How much does the current raffle, called the super tag, raise? Could it raise more if it was more than $5 a piece and was better marketed and did not (I believe) require conservation license to purchase it?

Your first question - not much compared to the auction. To your second point - absolutely. The mule deer raffle raised 56k and this year 15k supertags (75k$) sold for deer and the auction record was 41k.

In other words. The supertag > bha raffle > auction. Obviously a different thing could be true with sheep or moose - but im willing to bet if a national org selling bighorn sheep tags was to advertise it (i.e. at a bunch of banquets) itd be competive with auctions.

Consider the odds of a sheep hunt vs the raffle. If the raffle raised 400k (close to auction) with 50 dollar raffle tickets - youd have a 1 in 8000 chance of shooting a sheep anywhere in the state. Thats likely better than NR odds in a lot of desirable units with quite a few points. For less than what a BP and app cost.