Feral Horses Overgrazing
- Thread starter Lostagain
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Ithaca 37
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Who let the horses loose?
MarlandS
New member
OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!! (no really) nothing good ever came from a feral species. (I'm sure to be corrected but that's ok )
Ithaca 37
New member
There are a lot of feral horses where I hunt chukars. Actually, they are called wild horses but they are nothing more than horses that have escaped or were just turned loose on open range and never rounded up again. And I suppose that could have happened any time in the last 150 years.
They don't seem to congregate around water like cattle do, so I don't see any damage they are doing, and there aren't enough of them to overgraze the areas they are in.
I can imagine how they might overgraze an area if there were a lot more of them. Maybe that's the situation in Nevada. I do know that some ranchers in some areas of Nevada, Oregon and Idaho have shot some of them in the last few years. It doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to. But as far as some ranchers are concerned, wild horses compete with their cattle for grass just like deer and elk do, so they should be shot.
There was a case a few years ago where a couple of guys from some military base in Nevada were prosecuted for shooting some horses (if I remember right).
I know guys who have participated in wild horse roundups and I have a friend who's about 85 years old who has told me stories about a guy he knew when he was a kid who used to catch and break wild horses to sell to anyone who needed a horse.
They don't seem to congregate around water like cattle do, so I don't see any damage they are doing, and there aren't enough of them to overgraze the areas they are in.
I can imagine how they might overgraze an area if there were a lot more of them. Maybe that's the situation in Nevada. I do know that some ranchers in some areas of Nevada, Oregon and Idaho have shot some of them in the last few years. It doesn't seem to happen as much as it used to. But as far as some ranchers are concerned, wild horses compete with their cattle for grass just like deer and elk do, so they should be shot.
There was a case a few years ago where a couple of guys from some military base in Nevada were prosecuted for shooting some horses (if I remember right).
I know guys who have participated in wild horse roundups and I have a friend who's about 85 years old who has told me stories about a guy he knew when he was a kid who used to catch and break wild horses to sell to anyone who needed a horse.
sdgunslinger
New member
Who turned the feral horses loose ?
Originally the Spanish explorers .
When the white man reached the high plains and intermountain West , there were already millions of wild horses running around .
"Overgrazing" had already been going on for a couple of hundred years before Ithaca's greedy cowmen ever saw the West .
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 06:51: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
Originally the Spanish explorers .
When the white man reached the high plains and intermountain West , there were already millions of wild horses running around .
"Overgrazing" had already been going on for a couple of hundred years before Ithaca's greedy cowmen ever saw the West .
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 06:51: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
I doubt the feral horses we're seeing now are direct decendants of the Spanish horses, at least not without being domesticated at some time since the Spanish horses were turned loose. What I mean is that these horses, while maybe decended from Spanish stock, have had their lines interrupted by being domesticated at some point.
Can you back up your estimate of "millions" of wild horses? And how about some proof of overgrazing before 200 years ago? Nothing destroys rangeland like cattle do.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 08:59: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Can you back up your estimate of "millions" of wild horses? And how about some proof of overgrazing before 200 years ago? Nothing destroys rangeland like cattle do.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 08:59: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
sdgunslinger
New member
Have seen the "millions" figure of wild horses in the old days a number of times over the years . When I get the time I will do some digging and post some sources.
You got any proof I'm wrong , Ithaca ?
As far as which could graze the hardest , horses or cows , it is definately horses . Those buggers eat 24/7 ; at least cows lay down and rest once and awhile , lol . And like sheep , horses can graze down way closer to the ground than cows .
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 10:21: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
You got any proof I'm wrong , Ithaca ?
As far as which could graze the hardest , horses or cows , it is definately horses . Those buggers eat 24/7 ; at least cows lay down and rest once and awhile , lol . And like sheep , horses can graze down way closer to the ground than cows .
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 10:21: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
sd, I see wild horses almost every time I hunt a few certain spots. They seem to roam a lot and even where they congregate for awhile the grass isn't grazed down to the dirt. Maybe it would happen if they were enclosed by a fence, but that's not the case where I see them.
I wonder how many horses the Spaniards turned loose. Do you suppose it was more than 1000? How long would it takes for 1000 horses to breed enough so there would be millions in the wild? Remember all the predators back then. If wolves are gonna kill everything that walks now, why didn't they kill all the wild horses?
You're the one who made the claim about overgrazing 200 years ago.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 18:52: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
I wonder how many horses the Spaniards turned loose. Do you suppose it was more than 1000? How long would it takes for 1000 horses to breed enough so there would be millions in the wild? Remember all the predators back then. If wolves are gonna kill everything that walks now, why didn't they kill all the wild horses?
You're the one who made the claim about overgrazing 200 years ago.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 18:52: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
sdgunslinger
New member
Well , according to my set of World Book encyclopedias , "Several million wild horses roamed parts of the American West in the 1800 s. "
That's in addition to the millions of elk , pronghorn , bighorns , plains buffalo , etc. on the scene , so yeah I figure there was considerable grazing prssure on the west before the american white man scratched the surface .
As to how many horses the Spanish turned loose or lost , what's the point ? Keep in mind the Spainish had horses in the new world from the 1500 s . Those horses had alot of generations to multiply .
I find it kind of ironic so are so concerned about cattle grazing but dismiss the damage wild horses or even feral burros could do .
That's in addition to the millions of elk , pronghorn , bighorns , plains buffalo , etc. on the scene , so yeah I figure there was considerable grazing prssure on the west before the american white man scratched the surface .
As to how many horses the Spanish turned loose or lost , what's the point ? Keep in mind the Spainish had horses in the new world from the 1500 s . Those horses had alot of generations to multiply .
I find it kind of ironic so are so concerned about cattle grazing but dismiss the damage wild horses or even feral burros could do .
Ithaca 37
New member
"I find it kind of ironic so are so concerned about cattle grazing but dismiss the damage wild horses or even feral burros could do ."
The damage they do is tiny compared to what cattle do. Grazing by cattle in the last 150 years has had much more detrimental impact on public land than anything else.
I go bird hunting where the wild horses are because there's good enough cover there for good bird hunting. I never even bother bird hunting where cattle are grazing.
The damage they do is tiny compared to what cattle do. Grazing by cattle in the last 150 years has had much more detrimental impact on public land than anything else.
I go bird hunting where the wild horses are because there's good enough cover there for good bird hunting. I never even bother bird hunting where cattle are grazing.
sdgunslinger
New member
http://www.kbrhorse.net/wclo/whyman1.html
"The biggest problem with the wild horses is that as a reintroduced species, nature had not developed all the necessary checks and balances in the ecosystem to deal with them. A healthy horse's only natural predator is the mountain lion (also called cougar or puma). The mountain lion did not range sufficiently or prosper in enough numbers to sufficiently check the growth of the horse herds. In fact, out of thousands of wild horse herds and bands, the mountain lion has been influential in controlling less than a half dozen!
As a result the herds grew and grew, their populations only checked by the supply of food and water. During drought years, thousands of horses would die of thirst and starvation. Thousands more would starve during particularly hard winters. One could argue that water and food were nature's limiting factors, but there is much more to the story.
The wild horses share their habitat with many native animals. They found their way into balanced ecosystems and upset that balance. During lush years, there was enough food and water for all the animals. However, when times were hard, they not only ate much of the food needed by other grazing animals, but they destroyed much of the plant base in their desperate effort to get enough food. Thus, in an unmanaged state, the horses could (and did) have a very negative impact on the ecology of many areas."
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 11:12: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
"The biggest problem with the wild horses is that as a reintroduced species, nature had not developed all the necessary checks and balances in the ecosystem to deal with them. A healthy horse's only natural predator is the mountain lion (also called cougar or puma). The mountain lion did not range sufficiently or prosper in enough numbers to sufficiently check the growth of the horse herds. In fact, out of thousands of wild horse herds and bands, the mountain lion has been influential in controlling less than a half dozen!
As a result the herds grew and grew, their populations only checked by the supply of food and water. During drought years, thousands of horses would die of thirst and starvation. Thousands more would starve during particularly hard winters. One could argue that water and food were nature's limiting factors, but there is much more to the story.
The wild horses share their habitat with many native animals. They found their way into balanced ecosystems and upset that balance. During lush years, there was enough food and water for all the animals. However, when times were hard, they not only ate much of the food needed by other grazing animals, but they destroyed much of the plant base in their desperate effort to get enough food. Thus, in an unmanaged state, the horses could (and did) have a very negative impact on the ecology of many areas."
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 11:12: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
Here's another quote from your link.
"....a ten year crusade for sensible management and protection of wild and free roaming horses and burros. Legislation was first passed in 1959, however the Wild and Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 was the culmination of her efforts. Velma has been affectionately known ever since by wild horse enthusiasts as "Wild Horse Annie."..."
They seem to be well managed everywhere I see them. Maybe they've gotten out of hand somewhere else.
"....a ten year crusade for sensible management and protection of wild and free roaming horses and burros. Legislation was first passed in 1959, however the Wild and Free Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 was the culmination of her efforts. Velma has been affectionately known ever since by wild horse enthusiasts as "Wild Horse Annie."..."
They seem to be well managed everywhere I see them. Maybe they've gotten out of hand somewhere else.
sdgunslinger
New member
You know very well the quote I pasted was referring to the pre-white American times .
You were the one who poo-pooed my idea that overgrazing might have occurred before cattle---one of your problems Ithaca , is that you will never admit you might have made an incorrect statement...even after you have have been dragged kicking and screaming to the trough of knowlege and had your nose rubbed in it.........
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 14:37: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
You were the one who poo-pooed my idea that overgrazing might have occurred before cattle---one of your problems Ithaca , is that you will never admit you might have made an incorrect statement...even after you have have been dragged kicking and screaming to the trough of knowlege and had your nose rubbed in it.........
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 14:37: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ]</font>
sdgunslinger
New member
Yes , the mustangs are so well managed , the BLM even has to truck in water to some remote areas to keep hundreds of horses from dying of thirst . Imagine the impact of those animals on their range if it is that dry .....
http://www.kbrhorse.net/news/cedmt01.html
http://www.kbrhorse.net/news/cedmt01.html
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
I don't think the BLM should be wasting time and/or money on the management of wild horses. They should not be protected either. They are taking up habitat that native wildlife could be using. Why not have a hunting season for wild horses? Anybody like horse meat?
Muledeer4me
New member
This quote off of another site about wild horses seems to be in disagreement with Ithaca ,on the issue of over grazing
" Wild horses are rounded up and taken off public lands because surveys have shown they have overgrazed the range in some areas. The BLM conducts emergency roundups at places such as Nellis because animals there suffered through periods of extended drought."
It could be that Ithaca isn't in the know about wild horse's and the damage they can do.
Question------if all the owyhee's so over grazed and riddled with ATV track's,how does Ithaca find any place to hunt chucker's that he isnt seeing the place over grazed or over run with ATV track's?
When anyone has said we hunt and hike in area's that havent been over grazing or trashed with ATV track's ,we are told we are to stupid to know the difference --how about it Ithaca --your tripping yourself up old boy.
Or is it another case of everyone is screwed up but you?
I dont see how Ithaca can now find these unspoiled area's when he tell's us in every post how trashed everything is.
Is Ithaca the classic ( boy who cries wolf so many time's no one believe's him any more?)
Washington Hunter,a season on them would be nice(its not something I would like to shoot) but there is no way the animal rights nut's are going to OK anything like that.
" Wild horses are rounded up and taken off public lands because surveys have shown they have overgrazed the range in some areas. The BLM conducts emergency roundups at places such as Nellis because animals there suffered through periods of extended drought."
It could be that Ithaca isn't in the know about wild horse's and the damage they can do.
Question------if all the owyhee's so over grazed and riddled with ATV track's,how does Ithaca find any place to hunt chucker's that he isnt seeing the place over grazed or over run with ATV track's?
When anyone has said we hunt and hike in area's that havent been over grazing or trashed with ATV track's ,we are told we are to stupid to know the difference --how about it Ithaca --your tripping yourself up old boy.
Or is it another case of everyone is screwed up but you?
I dont see how Ithaca can now find these unspoiled area's when he tell's us in every post how trashed everything is.
Is Ithaca the classic ( boy who cries wolf so many time's no one believe's him any more?)
Washington Hunter,a season on them would be nice(its not something I would like to shoot) but there is no way the animal rights nut's are going to OK anything like that.
Ithaca 37
New member
MD4M, If you could read you'd see that I said wild horses may be a problem somewhere else, but not where I see them. That's why I say you're stupid. You constantly try to make it sound like I said something I didn't.
If you'd spend less time trying to find something to criticize about my posts and a little more trying to contribute some real information with something to back it up maybe I could have a different opinion.
I hunt chukars on the steep hillsides where the ATVs don't go and the cattle don't like to walk. The only reason you don't see overgrazing is because you wouldn't know it if you were standing in the middle of it. And if you're not seeing ATV damage you must be the only one in Idaho.
Why don't you take a look at the ATV tracks you made when you picked up your antelope!
If you'd spend less time trying to find something to criticize about my posts and a little more trying to contribute some real information with something to back it up maybe I could have a different opinion.
I hunt chukars on the steep hillsides where the ATVs don't go and the cattle don't like to walk. The only reason you don't see overgrazing is because you wouldn't know it if you were standing in the middle of it. And if you're not seeing ATV damage you must be the only one in Idaho.
Why don't you take a look at the ATV tracks you made when you picked up your antelope!
Ithaca 37
New member
I did a little searching for wild horse info myself!
"In spite of contrary claims, wild horses and burros are capable of leading a semi-nomadic lifestyle in the vast semi-arid reaches of the West. They may roam over a few to several hundred, even a thousand or more, square miles, depending on the lushness of vegetation and the availability of water and shelter. They do not camp on streams, rivers, lakes and springs, as do cattle and sheep, but judiciously disperse their takings over a much more extensive area then do these domesticated animals. Thus, in many grazing allotments where wild horses and burros are removed, purportedly to allow cattle and sheep to graze, in fact, the great majority of the land and forage in inaccessible to livestock, but would be accessible to the wild horses and burros. They would continue to survive in these areas without overgrazing them. This indicates the prejudiced scapegoating of wild horses and burros that goes on in order to perpetrate and perpetuate vested and exploitative, ecologically disharmonious livestock grazing on our public lands!"
http://www.savewildhorses.org/ecosys.htm
And before you get all excited, I'm not on a save the wild horse campaign. I like seeing a few of them once in awhile, but I'm in favor of keeping them at real low numbers.
The difference seems to be that, unlike cattle and sheep, the horses roam a lot more.
sd, you're wasting your time trying to make it sound like wild horses do even 1 tenth of 1% of the damage that cattle do.
""Although cattle grazing in the West has polluted more water, eroded more topsoil, killed more fish, displaced more wildlife, and destroyed more vegitation than any other land use, the American public pays ranchers to do it." Ted Williams, "He's Going to Have an Accident," Audubon 1991
http://www.forestcouncil.org/press/grazing.php
"About one half of the earth’s land mass is grazed by livestock which is the leading cause of topsoil depletion. Since grazing land is constantly being used up, forests are continually being cleared to make room for more cattle grazing. Every year a forest the size of Pennsylvania is destroyed to make more room for cattle grazing."
http://www.becnet.org/ENews/98SpSuVeggie.html
"America's love affair with the cowboy distorts a far less romantic reality: Grazing has degraded or destroyed 700 million acres of western grasslands and has been the primary cause of decline in the population of thousands of species of plants and animals. They destroy the land that we own, and we pay them (with our tax dollars) to do it."
http://www.forestcouncil.org/learn/grazing.php
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 19:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
"In spite of contrary claims, wild horses and burros are capable of leading a semi-nomadic lifestyle in the vast semi-arid reaches of the West. They may roam over a few to several hundred, even a thousand or more, square miles, depending on the lushness of vegetation and the availability of water and shelter. They do not camp on streams, rivers, lakes and springs, as do cattle and sheep, but judiciously disperse their takings over a much more extensive area then do these domesticated animals. Thus, in many grazing allotments where wild horses and burros are removed, purportedly to allow cattle and sheep to graze, in fact, the great majority of the land and forage in inaccessible to livestock, but would be accessible to the wild horses and burros. They would continue to survive in these areas without overgrazing them. This indicates the prejudiced scapegoating of wild horses and burros that goes on in order to perpetrate and perpetuate vested and exploitative, ecologically disharmonious livestock grazing on our public lands!"
http://www.savewildhorses.org/ecosys.htm
And before you get all excited, I'm not on a save the wild horse campaign. I like seeing a few of them once in awhile, but I'm in favor of keeping them at real low numbers.
The difference seems to be that, unlike cattle and sheep, the horses roam a lot more.
sd, you're wasting your time trying to make it sound like wild horses do even 1 tenth of 1% of the damage that cattle do.
""Although cattle grazing in the West has polluted more water, eroded more topsoil, killed more fish, displaced more wildlife, and destroyed more vegitation than any other land use, the American public pays ranchers to do it." Ted Williams, "He's Going to Have an Accident," Audubon 1991
http://www.forestcouncil.org/press/grazing.php
"About one half of the earth’s land mass is grazed by livestock which is the leading cause of topsoil depletion. Since grazing land is constantly being used up, forests are continually being cleared to make room for more cattle grazing. Every year a forest the size of Pennsylvania is destroyed to make more room for cattle grazing."
http://www.becnet.org/ENews/98SpSuVeggie.html
"America's love affair with the cowboy distorts a far less romantic reality: Grazing has degraded or destroyed 700 million acres of western grasslands and has been the primary cause of decline in the population of thousands of species of plants and animals. They destroy the land that we own, and we pay them (with our tax dollars) to do it."
http://www.forestcouncil.org/learn/grazing.php
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-03-2003 19:26: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
Here's some interesting wild horse info:
"MYTH: Wild horses and burros are exotic, non-native species rightfully categorized as "feral" domestic animals.
False. The Wild Horses and Burros Act recognizes the wild horse as an "integral component of the natural system." Paleontological evidence shows that wild horses and burros evolved on the North American continent over the course of some 60,000,000 years. How they disappeared 8,000 to 10,000 years ago, if in fact they actually ever became extinct here, is a mystery. It is suspected that the horses were hunted to near extinction by humans who had crossed the ice bridge into North America. When Cortez landed in Mexico in 1519, he brought horses from Spain. Others followed. From these reintroduced animals came the great numbers of wild horses which eventually changed the culture of the Plains Indians.
The Spanish horses soon adapted to the same ecological niche their native relatives had once inhabited here. Every trait and characteristic that describes a native wildlife species fits the...."
http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=89
It seems that horses actually ARE a native species!!
"MYTH: Wild horses and burros are exotic, non-native species rightfully categorized as "feral" domestic animals.
False. The Wild Horses and Burros Act recognizes the wild horse as an "integral component of the natural system." Paleontological evidence shows that wild horses and burros evolved on the North American continent over the course of some 60,000,000 years. How they disappeared 8,000 to 10,000 years ago, if in fact they actually ever became extinct here, is a mystery. It is suspected that the horses were hunted to near extinction by humans who had crossed the ice bridge into North America. When Cortez landed in Mexico in 1519, he brought horses from Spain. Others followed. From these reintroduced animals came the great numbers of wild horses which eventually changed the culture of the Plains Indians.
The Spanish horses soon adapted to the same ecological niche their native relatives had once inhabited here. Every trait and characteristic that describes a native wildlife species fits the...."
http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=89
It seems that horses actually ARE a native species!!
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