Exceeding Max Recommended Loads

[cur dog]

If you are using a chronograph, you will quickly realize that you aren't really gaining much loading super hot. I always load for accuracy anymore.

 

[antelopedundee]

For the most part there isn't a great deal of practical difference between 2950 fps and say 3025 fps out to a few hundred yards as far as the game is concerned.

I'd use the manuals or other published data as a guide and check several to see how much they agree for a certain bullet weight and powder. I'm told that bolt lift is a better indicator of pressure than primer flatness since different brands of primers are of different hardness. Usually the Remington 9 1/2 are the hardest with Federal generally the softest.

Here is some published data for the 6.5-06 that can't possibly be right.

6.5-06 at https://imrpowder.com/warning/

I use 129 and/or 130 grain bullets interchangeably.

I routinely use up to 54 grains of IMR 4831 with a Federal 210 match primer and 129 grain or 130 grain Hornady or Sierra TGKs and don't see a pressure issue. The bolt lift is ok and the primers don't look flat hardly. I likely could creep higher, but don't see a lot of point to it.
I may contact them and see what they have to say about it.

The Hogdgon folks tell me the data is correct. I can believe the pressure numbers, but the charge weights seem low like there's a typo.

 

[Focus]

What do I do when chasing higher speeds and better groups?.......get a bigger gun. I err on the side of believing the powder and bullet companies that publish the reloading manuals know a little more than what their predecessors did back in the day. So if I ever feel I need more speed out of say my 30-06, I’d go buy me a 300 mag. No sense of trying to squeeze a 100 fps more out of a gun and promote action and barrel wear and possible KB.

 

[TimeOnTarget]

I've noticed my above max loads still show less pressure signs than a lot of factory ammo, I know there's lots of variables in that as well like primer and brass hardness though.

 

[Brian in Montana]

I've noticed my above max loads still show less pressure signs than a lot of factory ammo, I know there's lots of variables in that as well like primer and brass hardness though.

I've shot some factory ammo from Federal that came back primers so flat I'd I've been nervous about it if I'd loaded it.

 

[TimeOnTarget]

I've shot some factory ammo from Federal that came back primers so flat I'd I've been nervous about it if I'd loaded it.

Federal was the brand that came to mind for me as well. IIRC they have soft primers though...

 

[sbhooper]

I've noticed my above max loads still show less pressure signs than a lot of factory ammo, I know there's lots of variables in that as well like primer and brass hardness though.

I have fired rifles that flattened primers badly. I had a Savage 7 mag that just did that with about all loads, except moderate hand loads. It shot lights out, but for some reason, the way the bolt face was, or something, it flattened primers. I got to where I ignored it. I shot the gun for 30 years.

 

[Don Fischer]

Flat primer's aren't necessarily a pressure sign. Could be nothing more than a primer with soft cups. A flat primer that is flat all the way across the pocket, is a pressure sign. Anything much less and I'd look for other sign's to go with it. Sticky bolt, extractor mark on the back of the case are better pressure signs. If your reloading and get loose primer pocket's on the first reload, your way over pressure. Primer pocket's will naturally get loose over time, how soon depends on the pressure's you run. I found loose primer pocket's can be adjusted too. Guy told me about a tool he got from Hart gunsmith to tighten the pockets and it works. Something to keep in mind though is if the pocket is loose, the head is enlarged. Forgot that one. Measuring the case head is a good sign. New case's I've always found expand a bit, pretty normal. But not beyond the spec in the reloading manuals! That's pretty important. It won't necessarily ruin the case but it will expand the primer pocket. That little ring that you sometime's see around the firing pin dent is not a pressure sigh. Usually what that is is a firing pin hole in the bolt that a bit to big!

 

[TimeOnTarget]

Flat primer's aren't necessarily a pressure sign. Could be nothing more than a primer with soft cups. A flat primer that is flat all the way across the pocket, is a pressure sign. Anything much less and I'd look for other sign's to go with it. Sticky bolt, extractor mark on the back of the case are better pressure signs. If your reloading and get loose primer pocket's on the first reload, your way over pressure. Primer pocket's will naturally get loose over time, how soon depends on the pressure's you run. I found loose primer pocket's can be adjusted too. Guy told me about a tool he got from Hart gunsmith to tighten the pockets and it works. Something to keep in mind though is if the pocket is loose, the head is enlarged. Forgot that one. Measuring the case head is a good sign. New case's I've always found expand a bit, pretty normal. But not beyond the spec in the reloading manuals! That's pretty important. It won't necessarily ruin the case but it will expand the primer pocket. That little ring that you sometime's see around the firing pin dent is not a pressure sigh. Usually what that is is a firing pin hole in the bolt that a bit to big!

Which seems to be very common on newish rem 700's and savages for sure. Probably many others as well.

 

[ImBillT]

Most competitive shooters, especially short range benchrest shooters, are loading well in excess of max. Do with that information what you will.

I’ve gone from no pressure signs to major pressure signs with very minor increases in powder charge when using full cases of ball powders. Ball powders don’t compress, and when you try to compress them, weird things happen. Don’t do that.

Flat primers are a pressure sign. Yes, they can have soft cups, and therefore show that sign at a lower pressure than a primer with a harder cup, but flat edges of a primer are a sign that you’re near the maximum pressure that primer will handle. Increasing the powder charge will result in pierced primers, burned bolt faces, and a face full of gas. If you want to go higher, you’ll have to switch a primer with a harder cup. Federal and CCI make the hardest cups. Using either of them you will usually get ejector flow and loose pockets before a flat primer even in Lapua brass.

Canister grade powders, which is what is sold to reloaders, are generally kept to within about 5% of the specified energy density and burn rate. Always drop 10% below max when you change lots of powder.

Some actions protect the shooter better than others in the event of a ruptured case(which can happen for reasons other than excess pressure). I’m always a bit more confident when shooting behind the “three rings of steel” of a Remington 700 unless the bolt has been modified for a Sako style or M16 extractor.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Some of the older reloading books have the same load with 3 to 7% more powder. If you know what your doing and read the signs the max book numbers are just a go-by guide. At the end of the day what really matters is a good group and low SDV.

I have an old lyman that I use as my "base" and then kinda extrapolate using a new published powder company loads. My 64 lyman book is 15% faster for .264 win mag than the new book.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

Thanks everyone for the great input. All have been helpful for me and I hope for others that may have the same concerns. Please, keep the tread going...

 

[jdeans31]

I have always been way too anal about not going over max recommended loads listed in the load manuals. Call it afraid or cautious, I don't usually load to the max. However, lately I have ignored my own advice and went over max recommendations with now signs of excess pressure on the case. Also, I worked up to max levels years ago with the current manual of that time. Today, with newer manuals, the max load is lower by 2 or 3 grains than in the manual used in the past. I called Sierra Tech Support and the consultant stated that this is due to the use of different rifles, powder lots, and testing conditions. Is it really that bad to go over, or is it common to exceed max recommendations using caution and watching for pressure signs? What do you do when chasing better groups and higher speeds? Any comments will be appreciated.

I wonder if they list the max load under what the actual max load really is for safety and liability reasons???

 

[Don Fischer]

Something to keep in mind about reloading manuals, they are nothing more than a guide. The max loads are not an absolute, they can't be. Your talking different firearms with different chambers even in the same cartridge! Your talking about different brass that will vary some in capacity! I found out years ago that my winchester brass seemed to take more pressure than Remington and Norma. Wasn't true I don't think but I found pressure signs on one brass over another with the same loads! Flat primers are not in themselves a pressure sign, could be nothing more than a softer cup. Loose primer pockets are a pressure sign. To get them loose you expand the case head. Yet I knew a guy years ago that told me not to worry about loose pockets. He get's them and simply epoxy's the new primers in. No have never tried that and have no plans to try it! Over the years I have found a few things that do seem to be pressure signs. First enlarged primer pockets in the first couple uses. Next for me is the ejector mark on the back of the case and most important for me is a sticky bolt lift after firing. Now I may be right and may be wrong but a lot of years watching these signs has kept me from blowing up a rifle. manuals should be sold with a disclaimer that some max loads listed may not work in your rifle, chambers vary. About that, I had 2 243's at the same time for a couple years. In all my guns I neck size with an FL die until the bolt won't close on a fired case. Then I partial size with the same die till the bolt closes easy on the sized case and no land marks on the ogive of the bullet. 243 is the only cartridge I have ever loaded for while I had two rifles chambered for it. The loaded rounds from one rifle would not allow me the close the bolt in the other rifle! Difference in the actual size of the chamber. Because there a min and max size to each chamber. That is probably why manuals lead you to sizing to sammi spects. But the spect's they refer to are min spects, not max! Same with seating depth, case sized to min spec. just might let you seat a bullet out farther than a max spec chamber. Now just how do you think that might effect pressure? I have loaded a lot of cartridges over spec a lot of time's but as I approach max loads I pay close attention to pressure signs I believe in and I do not give away those loads to any one! I can use data from one manual to load a bullet of another brand. You check and your gonna find most manuals have a different max load for the same cartridge with the same weight bullet. Doesn't matter a lot, a 150grain bullet will be pretty close to 150grs no matter who makes it. The difference in the data comes from the difference in chambers in different rifles, and to another degree the lot of the powder your using and the primer your using. Now something else, I would not under any circumstances, use data designed for monolithic bullet's with lead core bullet's. I would use other data for lead core bullet's though with one condition. I start low and work up watching pressure.

Lot of guy's find their most accurate load is a less powder charge load. Might be right but I have found that the best or most accurate loads come in where I find them! I start pretty much everything about two grains low and go to one grain over max. I get pressure signs before at the max load or higher, I have a bullet puller and stop there. If at that point accuracy doesn't suit me I try a different powder!

I recall years ago, ex wife resized some 7mm Rem Mag case's for my while I was at work, her first try. Well the case's were all dented from to much sizing lube when sizing them. No sweat, simply loaded up some rounds with just under min loads of faster powder and found out the pressure went way up! Shooting into the ground the powder spread out in the case and , so I was told the spark jumped the powder and burned from the front back raising pressure. Cure was simple, point the gun up and the powder falls back against the fireing pin hole, pressure goes away. ifferent things produce pressure and really no telling which one it might be so stick fairly close to listed loads and never go to max or above until you figure out what pressure signs actually are!

One more thing to add. Think everything is to spec? Take a bunch of your case's all the same cartridge, even from the same box and weight them! Has to be pressure changes there! One small change might not matter a lot but a bunch of small changes I suspect would!

Sorry, guess I got a little off track but to me it seem's they are important things that have to do with reloading. Very safe pastime but pay attention to what your doing!

 

[EastTNHunter]

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