Do you guys really believe that all ATV riders break the law?

[Calif. Hunter]

I can't believe this topic is still going - does anyone think they are going to change the other person's mind? Or is someone keeping track of the score and will ultimately declare a winner?


As for me, I will just enjoy riding my toys in the designated OHV areas of BLM and state land... and pack my game out the old fashioned way unless it is right next to an open trail. But I will have walked in or ridden a horse in to hunt.

 

[Ithaca 37]

I already declared victory for the anti-fatassed ATV rider side. More restrictions weekly all over the country on ATV's. And Ten thinks he's winning because more and more management agencies are limiting ATV use to clearly designated areas! He'd probably think it was a victory to have a leash around his neck so he'd know just how far from the stake he could go!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Wow!!! Just when I thought the statement Originally posted by Ten Bears:
"Lack of education (or acceptance) by nonriders is just as much a problem. " was the funniest thing I had heard from the Fat-Assed Crowd, then Ten tops that with his DoubleSpeak of Restrictions are actually Designations.

Originally posted by Ten Bears:
BUZZ, what you see as restrictions (negative conotation) I see as designations (positive conotation). While you see more areas being restricted to use by ATVs, I see more areas designated / clearly labeled for ATV use.

Kind of like Dubya's "Clean Air Act" and "Healthy Forest Initiatives"...

 

[Ithaca 37]

"I see more areas designated / clearly labeled for ATV use."

They shut down huge areas to ATVs and restrict the fatasses to small limited areas and Ten thinks it proves the ATV crowd is winning!
How ya gonna deal with that kinda logic?

I'm sure glad Del started this topic! It shows exactly where the problems with ATVs are. First, the AZ boys prove themselves completely ignorant of the law and refuse to try to find out the truth. Then MD tells us about damaging habitat to load her antelope on her ATV (and claims the road just isn't visible because of the camera angle)! Then Ten thinks severe restrictions on where he can drive his ATV proves the ATV crowd is winning the battle and non-riders lack of education about ATVs is the problem! (Kinda like me not knowing all the EPA regulations about steelmill emissions is causing air pollution)

It's been one of the greatest threads ever!

 

[Ten Bears]

Being a supporter of the designation of roads and trail systems for ATV travel, and not being a fan of cross country travel (except game retrieval where it is allowed). I see many of these vast area closures as GOOD things. I believe that if an area is closed to secure the habitat, the area may be evaluated for travel corridors , even at a later date, without suffering further damage.

Then Ten thinks severe restrictions on where he can drive his ATV proves the ATV crowd is winning the battle and non-riders lack of education about ATVs is the problem! (Kinda like me not knowing all the EPA regulations about steelmill emissions is causing air pollution)

EG, you are correct. Using your own analogy, with your lack of knowledge (you said first) about steel mill emissions. If you read/heard/saw on the news, a story about steel mill emissions and air pollution, and the next time you witnessed "emissions" you jumped to the conclusion that all mill "emissions" were bad (= air pollution), you may think that the steam from a mill boiler was producing bad emissions, and therefore complain about something you lacked sufficient knowledge of which to make an educated decision about in the first place. EG/BUZZ/IT, I know that was probably way over your heads for an analogy, but please try to understand, it was the best I could do to tone it down for you.

Please explain how MD "damaged" habitat by using the sage to load her antelope.

EG, you still have not shown that it is illegal to use ATV's for game retrieval in ALL of AZ, nor have shown it is illegal to use them exclusively in the units that the AZ boyz hunt.

BUZZ, you gloriously celebrated restriction in ID isn't so glorious. It only restricts the rider from possessing the means to hunt during an open season while riding an ATV. It does not close the area from ATV riding by nonhunters, nor does it ban the "cross country" use of ATVs for game retrieval in areas that is allowed. Can you show me where in the ID regulations the list of closed units can be found? Kinda hard to inforce if it isn't readily available....

IT/EG/BUZZ, you keep calling yourselves winners. Someday, when there really is a competition, you just may become one, but until then, maybe you could silently keep telling yourselves "and gosh darn it, people really like me too." Who knows, that might happen someday as well.

[ 09-29-2004, 11:56: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]

 

[Nemont]

TB,
This issue is never going to go away. More and more restrictions will be placed upon the riders because they will not comply with the law. Your analogy to hunting and poaching is appropriate. The difference is that poachers steal wildlife from law abiding hunter. Outlaw ATV riders steal habitat, peace and quiet and destroy a public resource for everyone.

For example from todays Billings Gazette. Read what the ATVer's say. Basically it doesn't matter if an area is closed or not they are going to ride where ever and whenever they want. You appear to be somewhat reasonable regarding the use of ATV's but the majority of the riders cannot and will not handle the responsibilit of using ATV's correctly.

September 29, 2004


Shoshone Forest officials crack down on ATV use
Associated Press

JACKSON (AP) - Two full-time law enforcement officers have begun patrolling the southern end of Shoshone National Forest in search of people riding all-terrain vehicles off-road and in closed areas.

"The amount of use and ownership of ATVs, and those people wanting to recreate on the Shoshone, has just escalated," Wapiti District Ranger Dave Myers said Monday. "It's not a new discovery. It's just a building problem over the last 15 years as the ATV use has just escalated."

The officers will hand out tickets for as much as $100 to people who use motorized vehicles in wilderness areas, off-road or on closed roads. Mandatory court appearances are also possible, and violators might be required to pay for environmental damage.


Myers said new trails are being created in the forest off open roads, even areas that are specifically closed to protect natural resources.

For example, one designated motorized trail ends at a lake in the Beartooth area, he said, but ATV users have made trails around the lake. Similarly, even though vehicles are prohibited in wilderness areas, ATV riders have strayed into the Washakie Wilderness.

Problems are occurring from the northern end of the forest in the Absaroka-Beartooth and North Absaroka wilderness areas to the Fitzpatrick and Popo Agie wilderness areas on the south end.

Darren Bailey, an ATV rider from Fremont County for 38 years, said the problem stems from a lack of adequate trails.

"The Forest Service and greenies have cut it down where there's not a lot of places to ride," he said. "It's been better. When there are no trails to ride on, people are going to go wherever they want to go."

Bailey said forest officials have closed off some creek crossings to ATV use because the vehicles stir up mud and create ruts. But elk do the same thing, he said.

"Take this (state surplus) money and instead of closing the road off ... build a bridge." Otherwise, he said, illegal use will continue and even more land will be torn up.

Myers said there is ample, legal access for ATVs. Areas closed to ATVs might be horse trails or not wide enough for the vehicles, he said.

People have been driving down "closed area" signs and even taking them down. "This isn't really unique to the Shoshone," Myers said. "Most national forests I've been on are having problems with it."

U.S. Forest Service Chief Dale Bosworth has named unauthorized ATV use as one of the four biggest threats to the future of national forests.

Bailey said putting land off-limits to vehicles is "worthless."

"We're talking about grown men. ... You close down places where these people have been going, they're going to cut the locks. They're going to go around it. You're really not going to lock them out," he said.

 

[Ten Bears]

Two full time inforcement officers sounds like a good START. Why not have the fines equal enough to fund the program. I see not funding the program strictly from the fines, it would just increase the potential for frivilous tickets that otherwise wold have been warnings, but make the program worht while.....

I think that poachers steal a public resource from everybody, not just hunters.

 

[Nemont]

TB,
Did you read the entire article? What kind of mindset is it that locking public lands from ATV's is a "worthless" idea because "grown men" are going to ride where ever they want?



Nemont

 

[Ten Bears]

Typically the same mindset you would find in many roadside taverns.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by Ten Bears:
Typically the same mindset you would find in many roadside taverns.

I agree with Ten, not only are most Fat-Assed ATV riders breaking the law, they are probably all drunks, too....

 

[Nemont]

TB,
So would you say that there are enough people that have this mindset to affect your ability to ride an ATV on Public lands?

How many people with this type of mindset does it take to ruin it for you? Whether or not this mindset is typical in a roadside tavern or not it seems to be typical of many (not all) ATV riders. That is the reason EG,IT and Buzz are saying you are on a losing side. Your fellow riders do not consider your lawful riding to be adequate for their fun. Your fellow riders are letting you down.

Nemont

[ 09-29-2004, 15:24: Message edited by: Nemont ]

 

[MarvB]

One of the principle problems is stated in the article itself:

The officers will hand out tickets for as much as $100

...not much of a hand-slap is it? I mean when you consider what these guys may have wrapped up into gear alone and the time off they might be taking to get there (destination X) is the threat of a whole hundred dollar (maximum) fine gonna sway many of them from breaking the law? Hell if they're mostly barflies to begin with they'd drop that much coin on a round for the house....

 

[Ithaca 37]

Marv, And even with two enforcement officers in a national forest, what are the chances of getting caught? Maybe about one in one thousand. That makes it a fun game with not much to lose.

 

[Ten Bears]

I could sit in many a bar around here (if I still drank), and hear the same crowd talk about how they killed ...... the other night. The idea is that it's the same blow hard group making the same loudmouth statements. Do we have local poachers? YES. Do we have local illegal ATV riders? YES. Are they all the same group? No, not all of them, but some do belong to both groups, and others are just loudmouth blow hards that talk just to feel their lips flapping.

Do I see them as a threat to my form of ATV riding? NO, no more then I see poachers as a threat to my hunting and fishing. All these forms of illegal activity need to be addressed through proper inforcement.

I see loud mouths like EG/BUZZ/IT as those that would prefer that all ATV riders would leave the sport of hunting, and will work toward that ends. I know others that if required to make the choice, they will quit buying hunting licenses and tags and just ride their ATV's. Many of these folks already only buy the tags they expect to fill (some may even outlaw enough to only buy tags if they already have an animal to put it on, who knows for sure). I once bought all the over the counter tags in ID, but now this year I have bought only the turkey, deer, and bear tags. I will no longer give "extra" money to the f&g here. I once did it as a means of support, I now withhold it as a matter of distaste for the units closed to ATV use during hunting season. It's my money to spend as I see fit. I wonder if the reason behind the f&g here trying to raise the fees has anything to do with selling fewer licenses and tags? I wonder if you would get anybody to admit that if it were true?????

In the issues of my recreational pass times I see IGNORANCE as my primary recreational enemy: I see those that don't, wont, or just refuse to see hunting as a legitimate form of recreation and dietary supplementaion, as a threat. I see those that don't, wont, or just refuse to see that all gated roads are not closed to all motorized vehicles, and that ATV riding is a legitimate form of recreation, as a threat. I see those that don't, wont, or just refuse to see that others can and will recreate in ways that are different then they themselves choose, as a threat. IGNORANCE, my freind is the primary threat, IGNORANCE.

IT, are you talking from experience, or just feeling your lips flap?

That makes it a fun game with not much to lose.

 

[MattK]

Enforcement seems to be a problem in all facets of public use; Hunting, fishing, wilderness use etc. It seems to me fines should be a lot stiffer and more enforcement should be created but with tight budgets, it just won't happen. Also, it is hard for the "average person" to justify a really harsh penalty for a game violation or off road vehicle violation, when the judicial system seems to be so easy on "hard" criminals. Some people I have talked to about this problem say "How can you want a harsh penalty for driving off a road when real criminals selling drugs get slapped on the hand?"

As a sportsman, I feel it is my duty to turn in anybody I see in restricted areas and hope they will get fined. I feel a person should be held accountable as a sportsman (relinquish their hunting and fishing license for these offenses also.) Realistically, enforcement will never be to my satisfaction.

Hopefully, everyone will do their part to stop illegal off road use and other game violations.

 

[Nemont]

posted by Ten Bears:IGNORANCE, my freind is the primary threat, IGNORANCE.

Posted in article from Billings Gazette: Bailey said putting land off-limits to vehicles is "worthless."

"We're talking about grown men. ... You close down places where these people have been going, they're going to cut the locks. They're going to go around it. You're really not going to lock them out," he said.

You suppose ignoring the fact that many riders show IGNORANCE or worse WANTON DISREGARD toward the rules already in place pose any kind of threat to your preferred form of recreation? I am asking if you truly believe guys and gals who work toward further restricting ATV riding as a bigger threat then outlaw riders?

Nemont

 

[MattK]

Ignorance may be the problem. But the ignorance I see is in the form of those people driving into an area "they always" drove into not knowing that they can no longer do so. Ignorance by definition is not knowing. The main reason ATV riders are ignorant to where they can and can't drive is because they are too lazy to find out the laws. Maybe that explains their large posteriors.

If they aren't ignorant then they are just plain old criminal.

 

[Ten Bears]

As I said, YES. Outlaw riders are more evident then legitimate riders simply because they are just that, outlaw and therefore in the public eye.

How many registed ATV's are there in this country? If 10% were doing "outlaw" activities, how evident would that be? Answer those questions, then come back. I know for a fact on the local forest, legal riders have been reported for being on "closed roads" only to have to "prove" their innocence, just because somebody saw them "behind a gate". Last year I came here with the story of a 70+ year old man who had his ATV (on a legitimatly open for ATV travel road) disabled by another hunter upset that he had ridden in there to hunt. The old man had to walk miles back out, and some here claimed he had it coming to him. I would not put it past those members to do anything in their power to "sabotage" any legitimate efforts, even file false reports(?).

Ask yourself:

You suppose ignoring the fact that many hunters show IGNORANCE or worse WANTON DISREGARD toward the rules already in place pose any kind of threat to your preferred form of recreation? I am asking if you truly believe guys and gals who work toward further restricting hunting as a bigger threat then outlaw "hunters"?

I ask you, who is ignoring the fact that "many" (how many? I say 10% of riders) riders show IGNORANCE or worse WANTON DISREGARD toward the rules already in place.

 

[Nemont]

TB,
I don't believe 10% of hunters are poachers. I am not ignoring the issue of poaching nor am I ignoring the issue of ATV's tearing up public lands.

I would turn in both. I was in the Missouri breaks over the weekend. Bow season is currently in progress and I decided to go scout for deer. My daughter and I drove the 60 miles out to Bone trail. How many ATV's would you guess I encountered on either in the back of pickups or on trailers?

My daughter and I counted 137 wiht the prize going to an pickup and trailer from Wyoming that had eight ATV's on the trailer and one in the back. Only 3 guys were in the PU. Anyway if 13.7 of guys were riding illegally think of how much damage was done.

I am willing to bet the illegal riders or those who think they can ride every ridge top is closer 50% or even 60% based upon how the trails looked.

While I know you won't change your mind I think that there is going to be more and more restrictions on them because of the damage they inflict upon the landscape.


Nemont

 

[MattK]

I personally don't believe that a person trying to restrict hunting is a bigger threat to my hunting than the the outlaw hunter.

The outlaw hunter will change the mind of a moderate who really has no opinion on hunting.

The person trying to restrict my hunting already has his mind and opinion set against my recreation.

The only way to change the minds of others is to show them "the problem with....".

The problem with hunting is "the outlaw hunter" gives the anti-hunter a foot hold to restrict hunting by changing other peoples mind. You would be crazy to not think so.