Did you ever think it would go this far?

[Ten Bears]

I agree with MD4M, we should have multiple use. I'm just saying that I know of a few trails that need some maintenace, but it I get caught fixing washouts, mudslides, or any thing other then a windfall I can get in trouble for "unauthorized" trail "improvements". I have experience in building cribbing walls and supports, I know of water course crossings that would benefit from concrete fording blocks, but I can't even fix the problem when I come to it. I know other that would put in their sweat and time, but aren't allowed to fix anything.

 

[Lostagain]

The USFS/BLM are in CYA and crisis management. They can't do anything until its studied b/c they are going to have to defend their actions in lawsuits. I'll wager that more than half of the USFS and BLM budgets are expected to go towards court/litigation expenses and not on the ground management.

 

[1_pointer]

70% of BLM/USFS budgets now go for law suits. Is this extreme? Hell yes! Did they bring it on themselves? I think so in many cases due to improper management in the past.

 

[Ten Bears]

Pointer, what's your source?

We'll see how your management practices hold to light in a few years wont we. It's always easier to set aside and point out the blame and faults of others.

 

[1_pointer]

Ten- Professor at Utah St. Would you like me to try to get some hard info for you? What do you mean by 'your management practices'?

Here are some links to what I feel are good management practices:

Red Canyon Ranch

Behave

Deseret Land and Livestock

Quivera Coalition

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It's always easier to set aside and point out the blame and faults of others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How am I sitting on the sidelines? The research project I'm apart of is looking at ways to use GRAZING as a productive management tool to decrease sagebrush and improve grass, forb production.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, You mean you haven't figured out yet that 1 pointer is part of the solution, not part of the problem!?

He's going to school to learn how to better manage resources!

He's picking up a lot of great information, too!

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 70% of BLM/USFS budgets now go for law suits. Is this extreme? Hell yes! Did they bring it on themselves? I think so in many cases due to improper management in the past. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While some of this may be true, it is also even more true that the dirtbag lawyers have found easy pickings from this source of revenue!!!

 

[1_pointer]

If the land was healthy what would the lawsuits be over? Would there have been such a thing as an environmental movement if the health of the environment always been a priority?

People like to blame my generation for these 'problems', but we weren't the cause!

 

[Lostagain]

Would the lawsuits be over? Hell no. There would always be something that the money grabbers would make into a lawsuit/money. There will always be a group of people that make everything into them vs us ===send us your money to stop that revolting whatever.
Let's see.... there was the baby seals= people made a big deal of being clubbed, some money grabber got people to send in money to stop it=== did it stop? the clubbing continues, the money stopped.
Right now its the enviro...send in your money so we can stop those bastards. Another few years it will be something else. The people sending in money have a short attention span and the money grabbers will go on to something else.

 

[Ten Bears]

POINTER, I was curious about your source for the 70%. It sounds a little high (probably true though), and when you put $$$ to it instead of % I bet it's astounding.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The research project I'm apart of is looking at ways to use GRAZING as a productive management tool to decrease sagebrush and improve grass, forb production. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And my point is to improve grazing for what? At the expense of WHAT? Is or was there ever a sge grouse population in that region? If so, how is their response to the grazing?
I have learned here that the ecosystem that exists there now, will be changed by these "improvements", and I can only "surmise" that through these changes we will see some popualtion "shifts".

POINTER, I am not saying what you are doing is wrong, but I am saying that what you are doing is not seen as "good works" by everybody.

ITHACA, the solution to some, is the problem to others. I here you complain about educated mangers all the time, and these people have been trained, but they have different opinions then yours so you spout off (please crawl back into your hole).

Healthy is a subjective term, and the lawsuits would come to bare anyways (eventually). These lawsuits are the results of a wealthy nation, we have the luxury of worrying about the health of the land, and not so much ourselves starving. We have built the wealth of our nation on at the expense on the resources. We could not have built this country as fast as we have, to be as wealthy as it is, and concerned ourselves with the costs of the resources.

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And my point is to improve grazing for what? At the expense of WHAT? Is or was there ever a sge grouse population in that region? If so, how is their response to the grazing?
I have learned here that the ecosystem that exists there now, will be changed by these "improvements", and I can only "surmise" that through these changes we will see some popualtion "shifts". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The main problem with my study site is too much sagebrush. The goal is to use sheep as a way of reducing the amount of sagebrush instead of 2,4-D or fire, but we don't want to remove all sagebrush. This should allow more growth for grasses and forbs which provide more forage for both livestock and wildlife. Hopefully, it will only be at the expense of sagebrush. There are sagegrouse present and they are the biggest reason that the ranch is letting us do this work there. Sagegrouse depend on sagebrush in the winter, but in the summer they need all the forbs and bugs they can get. Too much sagebrush lowers the production of forbs and grass. Sagegrouse require a mosiac of successional states to be successful. Older stands are required in the winter, younger stands are required during egg laying and brood rearing as the chicks can't digest sagebrush until they are approx. 6 weeks old.

I understand it's not seen as 'good works', but I believe that proactive management is needed.

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> We have built the wealth of our nation on at the expense on the resources. We could not have built this country as fast as we have, to be as wealthy as it is, and concerned ourselves with the costs of the resources. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a very good point!!
There is not a wealthy country in the world that does not use its resources. This has been going on since the time man has been putting countries together. The strength and wealth of a country is in direct proportion to its ability to have and use its natural resources. Lock them up or don't have any, you will have a third rate nation and there are a lot of people in this nation that even when this is pointed out, won't see it because they are so blinded by their own little wants and needs.
I do need to say in this post, there is no use of the words, or mention of, stripping our resources clean or over abuse...Look hard some of you, it is not there!!!

 

[Lostagain]

1P== that's good work for them sagehens....keep it up...not many things as fun as watching those roosters on the leks.

you ever need info on herbicides just ask.

 

[1_pointer]

They've done alot of work over there with 2,4-D (they used to buy it by the tanker!!), but are wanting to try the sheep thing for a couple of reasons. 1. With sheep you have some product afterwards(though it's not worth alot) 2. 2,4-D kills all sagebrush and that is not the plan. Some is needed for winter forage and snow holding.

 

[Lostagain]

4amine works rather well on sagebrush earlier in the season. Mostly. Esther really wacks the brush when used with diesel. Ifn you want to just burn the brush back but not kill it, then you need to convince yourself you want to kill it all, then it won't die. kinda that reverse psychology chit. Different times I've had really good luck tank mixing tordon 22k with urea, that seemed to wipe out a bunch of the "weeds" but left the wildflowers and grasses along with quite abit of the sturdier bushes.

 

[Ten Bears]

1P=== Is fire control the reason that the sage is growing so old, or is there another reason?

 

[1_pointer]

Fire suppresion and overgrazing are the two main factors why there's too much sagebrush. Fire kills them and overgrazing puts increased pressure on the grasses giving sagebrush seedlings a competitive advantage.

I'm hoping to count males on leks this spring at the ranch. I think they counted just over 650 males there last year!!!

 

[ELKCHSR]

I posted some field findings on this from what is happening on some of the fires that are burning very hot and sterilizing the area....When this happens, it may be the time to spread some of the native grasse seeds out in these areas and let them get established. But what do I know, I haven't ever had any schooling in this particular stuff...

 

[Ten Bears]

1P== Thanks for the info. I hate to say it but, sometimes you gotta paint a pretty clear picture before I see it.

 

[1_pointer]

Elkchsr- That does work, but have you ever priced native grass seed? Many people won't due certain practices because even if it works the land won't repay the costs. You also stated that the seeds were dormant r 50yrs, but that the soil was sterile. What good is it gonna do to drop good seed on sterile soil? I've never done it, but my book says it's not gonna be too good.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-14-2003 10:14: Message edited by: 1_pointer ]</font>