Colorado Unit 18 Conditions following fire in 2020

[ridn9high]

the surveying methods and statistical methods to put harvest stats together by cpw have been discussed ad nauseum. they sample - which means not everyone gets a phone call.

so, whoever or whatever ass they came out of, they represent more than nothin, better than nothin, and the biologists do utilize them. take with whatever size salt you want.

It’s not accurate! They want to break it down by unit, then like mentioned above, mandatory survey for everyone holding a tag. The data will be a lot better. Will it be perfect? Nope! Guys will lie about killing or not killing, but it will be a lot closer than now.

A certain unit shows around 50% kill rate for 3rd season deer for 4 consecutive years. We were there 3 of those four years and one of them was a complete slaughter. Gut piles everywhere you went. Deer in almost every pickup. Deer in camps all through the unit. The stars aligned that season with the snow, migration, and rut. Everyone was filling tags. The year before was super dry and warm with no snow. Guys were struggling to fill tags. But, by going off the stats, it would look like those years were the same.

 

[TOGIE]

It not accurate! They want to break it down by unit, then like mentioned above, mandatory survey for everyone holding a tag. The data will be a lot better. Will it be perfect? Nope! Guys will lie about killing or not killing, but it will be a lot closer than now.

A certain unit shows around 50% kill rate for 3rd season deer for 4 consecutive years. We were there 3 of those four years and one of them was a complete slaughter. Gut piles everywhere you went. Deer in almost every pickup. Deer in camps all through the unit. The stars aligned that season with the snow, migration, and rut. Everyone was filling tags. The year before was super dry and warm with no snow. Guys were struggling to fill tags. But, by going off the stats, it would look like those years were the same.

so, like, you're going with a biiig grain of salt then?

 

[squirrel]

squirrel is a broken record on "all the elk in 18 burned up and the rest died due to a bad winter"

i kinda put more trust in the guys with helicopters that say they didn't all burn up and then the stragglers didnt all die of starvation.

the questionable harvest stats have always been kinda dismal in 18 anyway

So Togie How many elk did you count on the winter range this last year, how many the year before right after the fire swept thru? 2 years ago there was a group of approx 150 came out of the burn to that herds traditional range. I spent an afternoon glassing a hill that should have had 2500-5000 head of game on it, based on 30 years of personal observations. On that bitter cold January afternoon I counted 6 deer and 15 elk on maybe 20sq miles of premium range, and no trails or tracks across the drift cornices.

This past winter a MUCH harsher winter They all ended up in my yard trying to eat my hay, fortunately my downriver neighbour had better hay and they all ended up down there. this herd had about 20-25 bulls and 200 cows, of which no small # got taken out by the train and highway. The deer faired far worse we sent maybe 150-200 head back up the hill after the highway slaughter

You can hunt wherever you want and believe whoever you want to believe. If you choose to hunt in #18 you won't have to worry about me crowding you. Some of these NR nimrods spend a lot of time and /$ to chase the free meat. Personally I think they deserve a bit of facts from those who know the ground.

 

[TOGIE]

So Togie How many elk did you count on the winter range this last year, how many the year before right after the fire swept thru? 2 years ago there was a group of approx 150 came out of the burn to that herds traditional range. I spent an afternoon glassing a hill that should have had 2500-5000 head of game on it, based on 30 years of personal observations. On that bitter cold January afternoon I counted 6 deer and 15 elk on maybe 20sq miles of premium range, and no trails or tracks across the drift cornices.

This past winter a MUCH harsher winter They all ended up in my yard trying to eat my hay, fortunately my downriver neighbour had better hay and they all ended up down there. this herd had about 20-25 bulls and 200 cows, of which no small # got taken out by the train and highway. The deer faired far worse we sent maybe 150-200 head back up the hill after the highway slaughter

You can hunt wherever you want and believe whoever you want to believe. If you choose to hunt in #18 you won't have to worry about me crowding you. Some of these NR nimrods spend a lot of time and /$ to chase the free meat. Personally I think they deserve a bit of facts from those who know the ground.

i'll still take guy with access to helicopters and collar data over guy who glasses a hill for 30 years.

 

[squirrel]

i'll still take guy with access to helicopters and collar data over guy who glasses a hill for 30 years.

Well you do have a lot of posts, you must be very knowledgeable. have a good hunt.

 

[TOGIE]

Well you do have a lot of posts, you must be very knowledgeable. have a good hunt.

i guess i just view it from a different angle.

clearly, the landscape has been dramatically altered and therefore one can/should expect the elk dynamics to be dramatically altered in conjunction.

just because elk aren't where they often were pre fire doesn't mean the elk are gone.

 

[WIbiggame]

I spent an afternoon glassing a hill that should have had 2500-5000 head of game on it, based on 30 years of personal observations. On that bitter cold January afternoon I counted 6 deer and 15 elk on maybe 20sq miles of premium range, and no trails or tracks across the drift cornices.

Could it be that the fire maybe did what fires do and created some better habitat and the elk wintered there? Or it created better spring, summ3r habitat and moved the herd so they migrate to winter in a different area closer/easier to get to?

I have spots on the river here my great grandpa, grandpa, dad, and myself used to pull 100s of blue gills out of ice fishing. Guess what river had a 100yr flood 5 years ago and changed the whole dynamics of the river and that spot isn't 1/2 of what it used to be.

 

[WVmike]

So Togie How many elk did you count on the winter range this last year, how many the year before right after the fire swept thru? 2 years ago there was a group of approx 150 came out of the burn to that herds traditional range. I spent an afternoon glassing a hill that should have had 2500-5000 head of game on it, based on 30 years of personal observations. On that bitter cold January afternoon I counted 6 deer and 15 elk on maybe 20sq miles of premium range, and no trails or tracks across the drift cornices.

This past winter a MUCH harsher winter They all ended up in my yard trying to eat my hay, fortunately my downriver neighbour had better hay and they all ended up down there. this herd had about 20-25 bulls and 200 cows, of which no small # got taken out by the train and highway. The deer faired far worse we sent maybe 150-200 head back up the hill after the highway slaughter

You can hunt wherever you want and believe whoever you want to believe. If you choose to hunt in #18 you won't have to worry about me crowding you. Some of these NR nimrods spend a lot of time and /$ to chase the free meat. Personally I think they deserve a bit of facts from those who know the ground.

I will say that I am not around elk as much as some of the other contributors on this forum since I live in WV but I also know that animals adapt and they are not confined to a certain location especially when the terrain is altered from either manmade issues or naturally occurring. From what I have read, the herd numbers in Colorado are considered the largest in the world and an elks range is quite large compared to that of whitetail which I am accustomed to hunting and their feeding patterns/composition is different as well. The game also go into places that are knarly and nasty "where most people don't want to go" even for whitetails. I use this forum not just for gathering info and learning as much as I can, but also helping others as well. And yes I am a nonresident of the western states that hold all the elk but I would love to hunt elk in the western states where there is actually some wilderness left that man hasn't touched.

 

[elkduds]

I will say that I am not around elk as much as some of the other contributors on this forum since I live in WV but I also know that animals adapt and they are not confined to a certain location especially when the terrain is altered from either manmade issues or naturally occurring. From what I have read, the herd numbers in Colorado are considered the largest in the world and an elks range is quite large compared to that of whitetail which I am accustomed to hunting and their feeding patterns/composition is different as well. The game also go into places that are knarly and nasty "where most people don't want to go" even for whitetails. I use this forum not just for gathering info and learning as much as I can, but also helping others as well. And yes I am a nonresident of the western states that hold all the elk but I would love to hunt elk in the western states where there is actually some wilderness left that man hasn't touched.

A decline of, say 10% in CO's elk population is much more apparent than in states w smaller elk herds. Locals were bemoaning the decline of elk herds near Aspen, Vail and Durango years before CPW acknowledged herd declines and took what actions it has available, including tag reductions and more spring closures in calving areas. Whole Colorado DAUs have taken big hits in elk #s without corresponding increases in nearby units. They don't just migrate to other units, when habitat suffers fewer calves reach adulthood. That herd dwindles, often significantly. Recovery from that is harder than ever here, because there is less ideal habitat every year. Except . . .

I took a familiar hike into elk habitat last evening for the 1st time this summer. The area burned about 5 years ago. It is among the windier units, and has benefitted from a wet summer so far. This year the # of fallen trees far surpasses anything I've seen in the 10 years I've summered in this area. The closed logging road I hiked down is obscured by deadfall. Formerly an easy walk, now 50% a bushwhack. North facing slopes were covered w lodgepoles 8" tall, like giant astroturf over hundreds of acres. It will be hard for cattle to get around in there, so the quality of that habitat for elk has improved noticeably. A fact unnoticed by the ADV motorcycle gangs that 'discovered' via internet the dirt road loop that forms the wilderness boundary for several miles there. Roads, fires, droughts, monsoons, winter severity, proximity to growing communities, grazing, increased motorized use, media exposure; these are just some of the dynamic variables impacting elk habitat in CO and elsewhere.

 

[squirrel]

Could it be that the fire maybe did what fires do and created some better habitat and the elk wintered there? Or it created better spring, summ3r habitat and moved the herd so they migrate to winter in a different area closer/easier to get to?

I have spots on the river here my great grandpa, grandpa, dad, and myself used to pull 100s of blue gills out of ice fishing. Guess what river had a 100yr flood 5 years ago and changed the whole dynamics of the river and that spot isn't 1/2 of what it used to be.

Sounds like you spoke to Lyle W... (area manager CPW) While complaining to me about his inability to find an elk on my neighbours haystack he could shoot he explained to me they were all wintering up high because of all the re-growth that occurred post fire.

Now the time line matters here. Late Oct. start of the fire, two weeks of inferno, put out by a 36" dump of snow followed by -10/-20 degree temps.

it may be different in WI but here we don't generally have to mow our yard when it is -15 outside. I may be the only one but generally have my mower put away after Labor Day.

Yet here was an Area MGR explaining how grass will grow up through 3' of snow in -10 degree temps to a height where elk will feed off of it. (this specific conversation occurred a few weeks after the fires were out, early dec, 2020). And Lyle learned a lesson that winter that shooting a theoretical elk is easier off the meeting room table than off of the hood of your truck.

There is a very good way for all you people to prove me wrong, come here, buy two tags each, come back on here strutting and gobbling about how easy it was to fill all those tags with all that free meat. I'll even rent you llamas for your adventure and you can gloat all winter knowing how you made me soak and scrub to get all the blood stains out of those panniers. I cant see any downside for you here at all.

Now many of you want to believe your gov't agency. But I believe my eyes. Some members on this very site have explained to me that what I saw happen actually did not happen, because they say it did not, and they have a badge, along with a gun, and truth dwells in their heart...

Besides stogie saw and elk and shot it, who can argue with that?

 

[WIbiggame]

I'll even rent you llamas for your adventure and you can gloat all winter knowing how you made me soak and scrub to get all the blood stains out of those panniers. I cant see any downside for you here at all.

If my hunting partner and I rent the lamas and we both kill elk do we get our $ back, plus say 20% interest on top of the rental in return? I can't see a downside for you here at all? I mean all the elk are ashes anyway?

 

[squirrel]

If my hunting partner and I rent the lamas and we both kill elk do we get our $ back, plus say 20% interest on top of the rental in return? I can't see a downside for you here at all? I mean all the elk are ashes anyway?

There was never supposed to be a downside for me. And there were a couple hundred head I fed for you last winter until they developed better taste in hay, still waiting on the check for that, who knows between you and the toagster you may kill most of those semi-domesticated elks, leaving me nothing to photograph out my bathroom window next winter.

the reason for the amusing anecdote of the dirt road pull-over of me and dogs by the was to illustrate for toag that this was the "guy with the helicopters and radio collars" pulling me over and asking for "how and where" info from the guy "who glasses a hill for 30 years". Pretty sure he didn't pick up what I was spoon feeding him though.

Im sure you get pulled over all the time for the latest hot blue gill fishing tips, after all not just anyone can catch a wily bluegill.

I the spirit of fairness I will give you the same refund deal the CPW gives you on unfilled elk tags if you bring home bloody bags full of the "free meat".

 

[Thegreatwapiti]

after all not just anyone can catch a wily bluegill.

Classic!

 

[RyGuy]

Sounds like you spoke to Lyle W... (area manager CPW) While complaining to me about his inability to find an elk on my neighbours haystack he could shoot he explained to me they were all wintering up high because of all the re-growth that occurred post fire.

Now the time line matters here. Late Oct. start of the fire, two weeks of inferno, put out by a 36" dump of snow followed by -10/-20 degree temps.

it may be different in WI but here we don't generally have to mow our yard when it is -15 outside. I may be the only one but generally have my mower put away after Labor Day.

Yet here was an Area MGR explaining how grass will grow up through 3' of snow in -10 degree temps to a height where elk will feed off of it. (this specific conversation occurred a few weeks after the fires were out, early dec, 2020). And Lyle learned a lesson that winter that shooting a theoretical elk is easier off the meeting room table than off of the hood of your truck.

There is a very good way for all you people to prove me wrong, come here, buy two tags each, come back on here strutting and gobbling about how easy it was to fill all those tags with all that free meat. I'll even rent you llamas for your adventure and you can gloat all winter knowing how you made me soak and scrub to get all the blood stains out of those panniers. I cant see any downside for you here at all.

Now many of you want to believe your gov't agency. But I believe my eyes. Some members on this very site have explained to me that what I saw happen actually did not happen, because they say it did not, and they have a badge, along with a gun, and truth dwells in their heart...

Besides stogie saw and elk and shot it, who can argue with that?

Sheesh. You’re making me want to get one of these tags just reading this…

 

[oswald2581]

I was camping on the eastern side of the burn in 18 this summer. You could see the grass coming in nicely in the burned areas near the road. Can't speak for the center of the burn where it was likely hotter, but I would imagine grass, aka food, is growing back in there as well.

I have spent some time in the area, I was really surprised how green most of it was but A LOT was weeds and not quality feed for elk. So that's another thing to keep in mind.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

 

[TOGIE]

the org i work for is also a major funder and is co-project managing much of the post-fire aerial mulching in this area. we have folks in the field looking at the regrowth quite a bit. there is in fact regrowth.



i'm curious @squirrel did you ever go looking for the elk where the DWM said they were wintering? or just dismiss his claims as conspiracy unicorn chit? cuz "the elk ain't where they used to be."

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

the org i work for is also a major funder and is co-project managing much of the post-fire aerial mulching in this area. we have folks in the field looking at the regrowth quite a bit. there is in fact regrowth.

View attachment 230811

i'm curious @squirrel did you ever go looking for the elk where the DWM said they were wintering? or just dismiss his claims as conspiracy unicorn chit? cuz "the elk ain't where they used to be."

I love that picture, regardless of elk hunting, and nonwithstanding all the folks that lost there homes... I have friends that did and my family was very close, it's great to see the pine beetle mess gone.

I hope the moonscape areas are able to come back in a reasonable about of time.

 

[TOGIE]

it's great to see the pine beetle mess gone.

I hope the moonscape areas are able to come back in a reasonable about of time.

it really really is nice to see much of that stuff gone and i really hope it does too. some areas will obviously struggle though, like some of the high park burn areas look terrible still.

 

[squirrel]

the org i work for is also a major funder and is co-project managing much of the post-fire aerial mulching in this area. we have folks in the field looking at the regrowth quite a bit. there is in fact regrowth.

View attachment 230811

i'm curious @squirrel did you ever go looking for the elk where the DWM said they were wintering? or just dismiss his claims as conspiracy unicorn chit? cuz "the elk ain't where they used to be."

Of course it was all closed down, that would have been illegal, but my dog went on a long walk and reported unblemished snow for miles, my dog has been extensively trained in looking through a spotting scope... and nothing eats lupines, except for hummingbirds