Colo Point Banking

[jimss]

Buzz, You are always so thoughtful and considerate in your posts! Thanks for being so helpful! Actually my son just starting out hunting a few years ago and has already drawn 3 Wyo antelope tags, 1 deer tag, and will draw a fantastic elk hunt any year now thanks to Wyos incredible pref pt system! I welcome any youngsters starting out to email me directly and I can set them up on some great hunts in Wyoming and Colorado!
[email protected]

 

[Zach]

that there is funny (Back to your regularly scheduled skirmish)

Zach - the hunts you have there are hunts that get put together after the drawings for the regular tags (and RFW) are done. I have only seen these hunts put out for youths where you kids can write a report, or "put thier name in a hat" drawing or something like that. Preference points aren't used.

Got it, I'll have to invest some more time on the youth portion as my 11 y/o daughter will begin her first year of hunting this year.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Buzz, You are always so thoughtful and considerate in your posts! Thanks for being so helpful! Actually my son just starting out hunting a few years ago and has already drawn 3 Wyo antelope tags, 1 deer tag, and will draw a fantastic elk hunt any year now thanks to Wyos incredible pref pt system! I welcome any youngsters starting out to email me directly and I can set them up on some great hunts in Wyoming and Colorado!
[email protected]

*** You may not like what BuzzH posts, but he's right most of the time whether you care to admit it or not! What does your son drawing several antelope tags and a deer tag have to do with Wyoming having such an "incredible PP system" as you put it? Anyone else can do the same thing without even having any PPs in a lot of units and can do it every year for antelope and deer! That's why I've been hunting out there most every year for over 20 years both before and after this sorry PP system for NRs was started 8 years ago. As far as elk goes, I was able to have a good chance at a bull tag every year until the PP system was started. Now where I hunt there's barely a chance for one bull tag every ten years or so the way the draw is shaping up. It will be 7 or 8 years to draw the buck tag I'd like and that was also possible to draw every year before the PP system started. Yep, that's a really incredible system alright, LOL!!!

 

[jimss]

I don't know about everyone else but I get a kick out of both Buzz and Topgun's posts! I knew it was only a matter of time once Buzz started posting that his partner in crime would show up! You guys are hilarious when you get together and start hammering at others! You always have such constructive input and helpful advice for others!

As Topgun has stated, "Buzz is right about just about everything!" I can't top that statement so won't even try!

I got a kick out of Topguns statement that he draws Wyo tags almost every year in the past 20 years and immediately says he hates the Wyo pref pt system. That really makes a lot of sense! Then in the next sentance says he can't draw tags? I'm a bit confused? Buzz and Topgun are my best buddies and thanks Wyo for one of the best pref pt systems that the West has to offer!

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I don't know about everyone else but I get a kick out of both Buzz and Topgun's posts! I knew it was only a matter of time once Buzz started posting that his partner in crime would show up! You guys are hilarious when you get together and start hammering at others! You always have such constructive input and helpful advice for others!

As Topgun has stated, "Buzz is right about just about everything!" I can't top that statement so won't even try!

I got a kick out of Topguns statement that he draws Wyo tags almost every year in the past 20 years and immediately says he hates the Wyo pref pt system. That really makes a lot of sense! Then in the next sentance says he can't draw tags? I'm a bit confused? Buzz and Topgun are my best buddies and thanks Wyo for one of the best pref pt systems that the West has to offer!

***Sorry your reading comprehension sucks, but to spell it out to you in simple English it's like this. BuzzH has always maintained that the only fair system for everyone is a random one and that's what I've always maintained and saying I'm agreeing with and is exactly what I stated in my post. What's so hard to understand that I can't draw the units I want to hunt any more without a bunch of PPs that I had a chance at every year before the PP system was started? I have only put in for the PP draw one time for deer and didn't draw the tag and never for elk because of the ridiculous point creep that's already taking place, but can and do hunt other units every year with leftover tags without going through the draw. Where I used to be able to hunt an antelope buck almost every year I've now only been able to draw 2 tags in the unit I want to hunt since the inception of the PP system 8 years ago, so instead have to buy leftover doe tags. Yep, I love Wyoming because I can still hunt a ton of game out there without going through the sorry azz PP system to do it most of the time. You got that slick?!

 

[jimss]

Topgun, My name isn't Slick but thanks for the compliment! I'm not exactly sure which units you are applying for antelope that you used to draw every year without a pref pt system and now for some reason take so many pref pts to draw? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me? If you were drawing every year without pref pts the turnover rate of applicants would be equal and it wouldn't take any pref pts to draw? It makes me wonder what your draw odds would currently be without a pref pt system? I would venture a guess that the draw odds and demand for that unit would be a lot tougher today than it was 10 years ago? There are certainly a lot more nonres applying for tags? The WG&F is also offering a fraction of the antelope tags it issued in most units the past few years so obviously there are more applicants vying for fewer tags.

You might take a look at how many hunters apply for the antelope unit you are talking about and how many tags they issued last year? Something doesn't make sense?

 

[Steelhead]

I'm confused. Am I pissed about antelope hunting in WY or the $828 that I gave CO? Are we putting in for a group hunt (me, jim, buzz and topgun) or are only youths allowed. I'd bitch but I feel as though I'm above it all because from the get go I've felt that I'm destined to throw money at "some day"...

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Topgun, My name isn't Slick but thanks for the compliment! I'm not exactly sure which units you are applying for antelope that you used to draw every year without a pref pt system and now for some reason take so many pref pts to draw? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me? If you were drawing every year without pref pts the turnover rate of applicants would be equal and it wouldn't take any pref pts to draw? It makes me wonder what your draw odds would currently be without a pref pt system? I would venture a guess that the draw odds and demand for that unit would be a lot tougher today than it was 10 years ago? There are certainly a lot more nonres applying for tags? The WG&F is also offering a fraction of the antelope tags it issued in most units the past few years so obviously there are more applicants vying for fewer tags.

You might take a look at how many hunters apply for the antelope unit you are talking about and how many tags they issued last year? Something doesn't make sense?

***The only one not making sense is you and that darn sure wasn't meant as a compliment, so again your reading comprehension sucks! Hey, if you dish a little out, you better be prepared to take a little bit back! What can't you understand when we say that you have a chance of drawing a tag every year in a straight up random drawing just like the next guy compared to a PP system that basicly eliminates all but the top PP pools in most of the better units and makes a person wait a number of years to have a chance at a tag? I also didn't say I DREW tags every year. I said I had a CHANCE to draw a tag every year under the random system. FYI my particular antelope unit hasn't had any buck tag cuts since I've hunted out there and, in fact, has had an increase in doe tags the G&F is issuing this year! The applicant numbers for buck tags has also remained very steady over the years, as I watch all the stats closely. So much for your guessing about tag quotas, applicant numbers, etc. This year I'll again be hunting buck deer, doe antelope, and may even pick up a cow tag in July and none of those will be obtained through the PP system!

 

[jimss]

I like your attitude Topgun you always have so many compliments to share! You may want to take a look at the Wyo antelope draw stats. In 2013 only 5 out of 115 antelope units in the entire state of Wyo that took more than 5 pref pts in the special draw to draw. Only 1 unit (unit 60) out of over 115 units that took max pref pts to draw. Guaranteed of drawing tags with only 0 to 5 pref pts in 95% of the available units and less than 1% of the total available units taking max pref pts to draw.
What is even more amazing is that 100 out of the 115 Wyo units took 2 or less pref pts to draw in 2013. 87% of Wyo antelope units you are currently guaranteed a tag with 2 or less pref pts....not bad! This is especially amazing since the WG&F has cut antelope tags in recent years in most units (I have backed this up below)! What makes the Wyo antelope pref pt system even better is everyone that applies has a chance to draw in the regular draw pool! What's not to like about a draw system like that?

FYI, there were 75,837 antelope licenses sold in Wyoming in 2010 and this dropped to 58,904 by 2013. From what I understand they are cutting tags state-wide in 2014. Buck harvest was 31,653 in 2010 and in 23,717 in 2013. That is a decrease of 25%.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

I like your attitude Topgun you always have so many compliments to share! You may want to take a look at the Wyo antelope draw stats. In 2013 only 5 out of 115 antelope units in the entire state of Wyo that took more than 5 pref pts in the special draw to draw. Only 1 unit (unit 60) out of over 115 units that took max pref pts to draw. Guaranteed of drawing tags with only 0 to 5 pref pts in 95% of the available units and less than 1% of the total available units taking max pref pts to draw.
What is even more amazing is that 100 out of the 115 Wyo units took 2 or less pref pts to draw in 2013. 87% of Wyo antelope units you are currently guaranteed a tag with 2 or less pref pts....not bad! This is especially amazing since the WG&F has cut antelope tags in recent years in most units (I have backed this up below)! What makes the Wyo antelope pref pt system even better is everyone that applies has a chance to draw in the regular draw pool! What's not to like about a draw system like that?

FYI, there were 75,837 antelope licenses sold in Wyoming in 2010 and this dropped to 58,904 by 2013. From what I understand they are cutting tags state-wide in 2014. Buck harvest was 31,653 in 2010 and in 23,717 in 2013. That is a decrease of 25%.

***Why should I issue any compliments to you when I think that just about everything you post is BS just like the above stats you're mentioning involving the higher priced Special Draw! I'd tell you where you can stick all your stats you come up with, but you might be offended if you didn't even care for the word "Slick", LOL! You're a real good one for posting all kinds of stats, but the problem is that most of the time you twist them to suit an agenda I don't agree with. There is no way in he** I'm going to buy a bunch of PPs while waiting in line to pay a ridiculous $500 license fee in that special drawing just to shoot an antelope because he has horns for God's sake. If you think the regular draw pool is so great with it's 25% of licenses you might want to look at a totally random system where they are 100% of the tags and everyone has a chance at them. Your "understanding" about cutting tags statewide in 2014 is also offbase in case you haven't looked at the proposals that will be signed into the Final Regulation in the next ten days. There are plenty of units that have no cuts, including the one I like to hunt, and as I mentioned before, it is even getting an increase in doe tags. You're also full of bull when you say you "backed up your one comment" when you talk about individual units and then give a statewide count for 2010 and 2013. That's a good example of how you can put up stats that show one thing and try to say they mean another. I'm done, as just like John mentioned to you when you kept after him, I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you when I know your agenda and it differs significantly from what I believe in and that's fairness for all.

 

[jimss]

Topgun, you are a work of art! We all wonder if you are as pleasant in person as you are hiding behind your computer! I enjoyed reading your last post! Especially the statement that I twist around stats to suit my own agenda. What makes your statement even more humorous is when you mention that 25% of tags are offered in the regular draw. The last time I checked the WG&F issues 60% of tags in the regular draw and 40% go in the special draw. You pretty much put your own foot in your mouth on that one! I took my statements directly from the WG&F draw stats so there is no way I can possibly twist anything!

If you don't believe this take a look at this website with the proposed draft of antelope tags. You will notice that the WG&F is planning on cutting antelope tags in the majority of the antelope units in 2014.

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/CH5_DRAFT_3-18-140005462.pdf

I thought I would dig a little deeper into the regular draw...since that's Topgun's favorite choice for applying. There were only 3 antelope units in the regular draw out of 115 total units that took max pref pts to draw in 2013. Those units are 57, 60, and 61. Again, I'm not twisting anything but stating facts directly out of the WG&F draw odds pages. The majority of regular draw antelope units in Wyo only take 0 to 3 pref pts to draw.....again just stating facts! It's nice that both regular and special antelope tags are relatively easy to draw in Wyo even when they have been cutting back on total antelope tags the past 3 to 4 years! Thanks Wyo for offering a great pref pt system to nonres!

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Topgun, you are a work of art! We all wonder if you are as pleasant in person as you are hiding behind your computer! I enjoyed reading your last post! Especially the statement that I twist around stats to suit my own agenda. What makes your statement even more humorous is when you mention that 25% of tags are offered in the regular draw. The last time I checked the WG&F issues 60% of tags in the regular draw and 40% go in the special draw. You pretty much put your own foot in your mouth on that one! I took my statements directly from the WG&F draw stats so there is no way I can possibly twist anything!

If you don't believe this take a look at this website with the proposed draft of antelope tags. You will notice that the WG&F is planning on cutting antelope tags in the majority of the antelope units in 2014.

http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/CH5_DRAFT_3-18-140005462.pdf

I thought I would dig a little deeper into the regular draw...since that's Topgun's favorite choice for applying. There were only 3 antelope units in the regular draw out of 115 total units that took max pref pts to draw in 2013. Those units are 57, 60, and 61. Again, I'm not twisting anything but stating facts directly out of the WG&F draw odds pages. The majority of regular draw antelope units in Wyo only take 0 to 3 pref pts to draw.....again just stating facts! It's nice that both regular and special antelope tags are relatively easy to draw in Wyo even when they have been cutting back on total antelope tags the past 3 to 4 years! Thanks Wyo for offering a great pref pt system to nonres!

***I'm not at all hard to deal with when I'm talking with someone who makes sense, but it's very difficult when all you want to do is post BS and twist things to suit your agenda! Since when did you start speaking for everyone else when you say "We wonder", LOL?! YOU were the one who used the term "regular draw" in your post (look at your post dufus!), so don't get on me with your BS about terms! You darn sure know from all my posts on MM that I know all about how the Wyoming NR draw is set up in that 75% goes to PP holders and 25% goes to the random draw and within the draws 60% goes to the regular price applicants and 40% to the higher price special draw. I also told you I very seldom even put in for the draws in Wyoming and get most of my tags as leftovers, so there is another "twist" of facts on your part. Since the PP system started I've actually only put in for deer once and didn't get drawn. The other two times were for antelope and one of those times in order to draw the tag I had to partner with a guy that was close to max PPs. So much for your great system! I've also looked at all the tag proposals and actually told you where to find them in an earlier post! There are a decent number of units that aren't getting cuts just like I stated even though a lot are. The proposal really looks bad with all the red numbers showing, but an awful lot of those are doe tags that needed to be cut, besides a goodly number of buck tags in certain areas. If you needed to counted them and they're over 50% to claim a majority, then good for you as again it's just twisting what I already stated. Tags that are "relatively easy to draw with a few PPs", as you put it, is still not the same as having an equal chance at those tags each and every year that all the other applicants have in a random draw. Now please drop it as you know how far apart we are on this subject. All the stats in the world that you put up may be accurate, but they are meaningless when compared to everyone having an equal chance in a completely random draw. Hey, why don't you go talk to piper, as he's on your side and will probably agree with everything you're saying!

 

[spook12]

As Captain Janks and more importantly John Cushman would say.............................BABA BOOEY.

 

[jimss]

Many antelope units are decreasing proposed tag quotas in 2014:
http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/CH5_DRAFT_3-18-140005462.pdf

There is only 1 special draw unit (unit 60) out of over 115 antelope units in Wyoming that took max pref pts to draw in 2013:
http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/DRAW_ANT_PP_NONRESSP_20130004259.pdf

There are only 3 regular draw units (units 57, 60, and 61) out of over 115 antelope units in Wyoming that took max pref pts to draw in 2013:
http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/DRAW_ANT_PP_NONRES_20130004258.pdf
No twisting.....everything is black and white! Everyone but a brick wall should be able to see this!

 

[Point Creep]

jims, you better just pipe down with this topgun guy. He's got this stuff dialed.

For the sake my ignorance, what's point banking? You can keep the ones not needed for a drawn tag?

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Many antelope units are decreasing proposed tag quotas in 2014:
http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/CH5_DRAFT_3-18-140005462.pdf

There is only 1 special draw unit (unit 60) out of over 115 antelope units in Wyoming that took max pref pts to draw in 2013:
http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/DRAW_ANT_PP_NONRESSP_20130004259.pdf

There are only 3 regular draw units (units 57, 60, and 61) out of over 115 antelope units in Wyoming that took max pref pts to draw in 2013:
http://wgfd.wyo.gov/web2011/Departments/Hunting/pdfs/DRAW_ANT_PP_NONRES_20130004258.pdf
No twisting.....everything is black and white! Everyone but a brick wall should be able to see this!

***Saying tags are being cut across the board like you did initially is twisting the facts when many units aren't being cut. Then when you were called out on that and told where to check the cuts you started using the word "majority", which is anything over 50% and a far cry from "across the board" cuts. Now you are using the word "many", which can be any number when we're talking 115 individual units. Using total cuts over the last 3 years, even though the stats are accurate, also misrepresents what is happening in many of the individual units, which again is twisting the facts to suit your own purposes. Using the Special Draw high priced tags as an example, even though the stats are accurate, to try and show how you can draw tags often is also a misrepresentation of the overall way the PP system works without taking into consideration the other regular and random draws. That is what is meant by "twisting the facts" to try and argue your case, not that the stats themselves are not correct. Comprende Mr. brick wall? PS: Now why don't you get back on the original reason you put up your posts and if you don't recall it was regarding point banking in CO!

 

[Musket Man]

The trouble is there are to many people from Michigan applying and that is causing all the point creep.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

The trouble is there are to many people from Michigan applying and that is causing all the point creep.

Hey MM, how ya doing buddy! Don't put me in there with the rest of the Michiganders since I've mentioned that all I do is buy leftovers most of the time. Point creep? What is point creep?!

 

[Musket Man]

Hey MM, how ya doing buddy! Don't put me in there with the rest of the Michiganders since I've mentioned that all I do is buy leftovers most of the time. Point creep? What is point creep?!

HAHAHA! I get leftover tags when I dont draw because of point creep too! LOL

 

[jimss]

Topgun, my name isn't Brick Wall! Anyone that looks at the 2014 Wyo proposed antelope tag quotas (except possibly Mr. Topgun) can see that there are MANY units that will be offering fewer tags.

Back to point banking....it's a HORRIBLE idea in Colorado!